Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Illearth War - Chapter 18 Doom's Retreat
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> 1st Chronicles
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SoulBiter
The Gap Into Spam

Ranyhyn
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 5158

Thanks: 16
Thanked 38 Times in 37 Posts


14274 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Forbidding1 Giant Ship1 Giant


PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know off the top of my head what the mistake is that you are talking about and I cant find my stinking book to re-read the chapter Cussing
_________________
"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Krazy Kat
~*~


Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 1664

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts

Location: Sky Blue City England
88 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Soaring Woodhelvin


PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The raver uses the word 'worship'.

Before the company entered Morrinmoss in Lord Foul's Bane, Prothal said to Covenant, in answer to his question about wether the people of the Land worship trees, that the word was unknown to him. So why does a Raver (or a giant) use a word that doesn't belong in the Land?

(In another scene from the Illearth War, Lord Mhoram also says something similair when Covenant talks about 'scenery'. Lord Mhoram said that he didn't like the sound of the word.)

The second 'word' appears later in The Blood of the Earth, when High Lord Elena is stablising the dangerous slope of scree. It echoes what Verement was doing at Doom's Retreat.

In the third paragraph of chapter 23 Knowledge, there's a metaphor used to describe Covenant's suppressed rage:

Leaping to his feet, he shook his fists at the sky like a reefed and lonely galleon firing its guns in bootless defiance of the invulnerable ocean. Damnation!

I don't beleive Stephen Donaldson uses symbols and metaphors just to fill space on the page. The wordplay of the 'galleon' and 'worship' and the two 'words of warning' are keys to a hidden knowledge. What this is, I don't know!

Any thoughts on this are more than welcome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18701

Thanks: 11
Thanked 209 Times in 192 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
42529 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At one point, Atairan says that "sacred" is an obscure word to her. Then, in Revelstone, there is a very prominent place known as the "sacred enclosure" by everyone.

I think these are slip-ups, which a good editor could have caught.

Even Tolkien talks about "freight trains" in the Hobbit. It happens.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Allan
Servant of the Land


Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


12 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is the house virgin (reader, I mean) going to be the Gandalf fan leaping to the rescue?

You're thinking tactics, not strategy. Imagine the Balrog at Helm's Deep, or Pelennor Fields? Just like 50 years earlier he took out the last Dragon, in Moria he takes out the, potentially, last Balrog.

Lord Verement's actions seem to be at the intermediate stage, but it seems the schedule is cut pretty close, so one wonders. Without this? Would they have made the rest?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 4714

Thanks: 956
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts

Location: Alpine, Arizona, USA
3870 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is indeed something puzzling about this chapter. Fleshharrower's demand that Verement worship him is very strange in any case. What does the Giant-Raver really have to gain by that? Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
SleeplessOne
One of the Infrequent


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 508

Thanks: 22
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

Location: Melbourne, Australia
1977 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: The Illearth War - Chapter 18 Doom's Retreat Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
There is indeed something puzzling about this chapter. Fleshharrower's demand that Verement worship him is very strange in any case. What does the Giant-Raver really have to gain by that? Confused


moksha tries to compel Verement to worship Foul, not himself ..

I don't think Fleshharrower had anything to 'gain' as such, I just think the Ravers, sick bastards that they are, would get a kick out of corrupting, humiliating and breaking a Lord and further demoralising the Warward.

That entire passage is tremendous, Verement's stand is doomed but he does not give an inch; some of his comebacks are among the most righteous, kick-ass lines of the entire chrons.

"You speak like a fool", and
"I match you hate for hate" ...

but of course moksha's power is just too great.
The Raver stomping Thomin's "structureless flesh" into the ground is another image that affects me quite viscerally... Ravers be crazy ..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
Savor Dam
Will Be Herd!

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 5020

Thanks: 53
Thanked 79 Times in 75 Posts

Location: Pacific NorthWet
796 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 2009 Watchies1 Furls Fire1 Love


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is indeed one of the central moments of the First Chronicles. What leads to it is critical to making Verement the Lord he needs to be at this moment.

Spoiler:
As those who have read the entire Chrons know, the Ranyhyn have knowledge that transcends linear time.

The Ranyhyn's lack of acceptance of Verement as a rider does not reflect unworthy on his part; difficult though it is, they have refused him to ensure he is forged for this moment. Not being chosen by a Ranyhyn both ensures he does not accompany Lord Shetra on the Mission to Seareach and reinforces his sense that he is not the equal of his wife or the other Lords.

The news that Shetra fell to the Lurker in the Sarangrave catalyzes Verement's sense of unworthy, loss, and having nothing remaining to personally lose. He may have been close to the emotional state that Trell was in in TPTP and capable of either Desecration or the alternative Mhoram found...but the second book is not the place for that breakthrough. Wink

Instead, Verement, true Lord that he is, has the strength to hold fast to his intent in the face of a Raver, much as Giants and Haruchai can. While his lore is not sufficient to prevail, he suffices to surpass Fleshharrower's will. Only with the Stone is Fleshharrower narrowly able to drive Verement to the verge of breaking. Having foreseen this possibility, Verement had instructed Thomin's last act.

Having been so deprived of Verement's surrender, of course Fleshharrower unleashes his bootless spite on Thomin...but the already-dead Haruchai is beyond any suffering for what the Giant-Raver does with his lifeless corpse.
_________________
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon

Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.
~ Rainier Maria Rilke
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Thanked by: SleeplessOne, Cord Hurn
dlbpharmd
Lord

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 14275

Thanks: 5
Thanked 51 Times in 50 Posts

Location: Jacksboro, TN.
14735 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 2007 Watcher of the Year1 2007 Watchies


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent post, SD.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18701

Thanks: 11
Thanked 209 Times in 192 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
42529 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely agree, emotion - any emotion - unlocks power. The more intense the emotions are felt, and the more unreservedly they are expressed, the more power is unleashed. Verement is an early lesson to this idea. And this lesson is for the benefit of the reader, for neither Covenant nor Mhoram is around to witness it.

So good point.

But was the invisible hand of the Ranyhyn present in this? It is sufficient to believe that the circumstances were arranged by the author in order to expound on his theme. The involvement of the great horses is one of those things that you can choose to believe, and it will neither be confirmed nor denied by the text. But if they had shaped this event, what ends did they hope to achieve?

Spoiler:
Certainly the invisible hand became more concrete in the later Chronicles. The question is really whether Donaldson had this in mind already in these earlier stages of the story. If so, he was content to imply it without stating it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Savor Dam
Will Be Herd!

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 5020

Thanks: 53
Thanked 79 Times in 75 Posts

Location: Pacific NorthWet
796 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 2009 Watchies1 Furls Fire1 Love


PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with WF's point that there is not explicit evidence of the hand (hoof?) of the Ranyhyn in this. It is, however, one of the more satisfying explanations for why Verement was not chosen to ride.

There is clearly something "timey wimey" going on with creatures who are able to anticipate a call before it happens and to then cross a continent so as to arrive just when called. We know that much about the Ranyhyn by midway through LFB.

Also in LFB, we learn that few of the Lords are chosen by the Ranyhyn, and that Verement is not among those chosen.

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
"They choose in their own way, and even the Ramen cannot explain them. ... Brother Verement is a worthy man."

We see them making a choice about Verement that may be capricious, but it is not SRD's way for details this significant to be in the story for no reason, especially in light of these seeds being sown a book earlier than the scene we now discuss.
_________________
Love prevails.
~ Tracie Mckinney-Hammon

Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.
~ Rainier Maria Rilke
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 4714

Thanks: 956
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts

Location: Alpine, Arizona, USA
3870 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
moksha tries to compel Verement to worship Foul, not himself ..


You are correct, SleeplessOne! My error.
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 4714

Thanks: 956
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts

Location: Alpine, Arizona, USA
3870 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
This is indeed one of the central moments of the First Chronicles. What leads to it is critical to making Verement the Lord he needs to be at this moment.

Spoiler:
As those who have read the entire Chrons know, the Ranyhyn have knowledge that transcends linear time.

The Ranyhyn's lack of acceptance of Verement as a rider does not reflect unworthy on his part; difficult though it is, they have refused him to ensure he is forged for this moment. Not being chosen by a Ranyhyn both ensures he does not accompany Lord Shetra on the Mission to Seareach and reinforces his sense that he is not the equal of his wife or the other Lords.

The news that Shetra fell to the Lurker in the Sarangrave catalyzes Verement's sense of unworthy, loss, and having nothing remaining to personally lose. He may have been close to the emotional state that Trell was in in TPTP and capable of either Desecration or the alternative Mhoram found...but the second book is not the place for that breakthrough. Wink

Instead, Verement, true Lord that he is, has the strength to hold fast to his intent in the face of a Raver, much as Giants and Haruchai can. While his lore is not sufficient to prevail, he suffices to surpass Fleshharrower's will. Only with the Stone is Fleshharrower narrowly able to drive Verement to the verge of breaking. Having foreseen this possibility, Verement had instructed Thomin's last act.

Having been so deprived of Verement's surrender, of course Fleshharrower unleashes his bootless spite on Thomin...but the already-dead Haruchai is beyond any suffering for what the Giant-Raver does with his lifeless corpse.


What an absolutely awesome post, Savor Dam!!! You've given me much food for thought! Hail
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 4714

Thanks: 956
Thanked 43 Times in 40 Posts

Location: Alpine, Arizona, USA
3870 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
That entire passage is tremendous, Verement's stand is doomed but he does not give an inch; some of his comebacks are among the most righteous, kick-ass lines of the entire chrons.

"You speak like a fool", and
"I match you hate for hate" ...


Truly, Verement has nothing to lose but his life, which he no longer values, and so he's holding nothing back! It's terrific drama, all the way.
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Thanked by: SleeplessOne
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> 1st Chronicles All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch