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The Illearth War--Chapter 17
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, i spose the are still human...they don't sleep, or die, or reproduce( Embarassed ), and they communicate telepathically - do they eat? I guess they're human... Question

I still don't see what other option they had except to take the Stone. even if they had decided to throw it into the sea, they still would have picked it up - touched it - and then it would have been to late...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have often wondered if it was all diabolically planned somehow...

LF sends the vision to Mhoram precipitating the entire Mission.

The ward, or whatever you might call it, the barrier in the Sarangrave, attuned to the earthpower in the Vow.

The minions of LF target the Lords to seperate the Bloodguard from them. Remember how the Lurker reached for Shetra? (Remember how surprised the Giant Raver was that Hyrim was still alive -- but he wasn't surprised to see the Bloodguard).

The Giant Raver DOES NOT slay all of the Bloodguard, even though he has plenty of opportunity.

Did he want the Bloodguard to recover the Stone? Did LF foresee both the deaths of the Giants AND
Spoiler:
the corruption of the Bloodguard?
while only having to sacrifice one of his major players?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points duchess! Very Happy Whats the 'death' of a raver to LF Evil or Very Mad , compared to the corruption of the Bloodguard Twisted Evil Question
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duchess of malfi wrote:
And the Haruchai are still human, though they are so gifted it can be hard to remember that sometimes.
Why thank you, duchess! You are so sweet! Smile Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dromond wrote:

Quote:
Things have begun to go against Troy ever since Covenant came into the Land, and to believe Tull would be bringing good news was too much to hope for.


It seems Troy covered whatever doubt he had with a facile certainty (for a few more minutes anyway).
SRD wrote:

Quote:
When Tull topped the stair and stepped onto the Watch, Troy was so eager that he jumped past all preliminary questions. "Where are they?" The words came so rapidly that he could hardly articulate them. "How far behind are they?"


This is one of those passages that has vastly different effects when read for the first time (it's SRD's buildup of the emotional roller coaster) vs. all subsequent times (the irony of knowing how completely, obliviously mistaken Troy is makes me want to start my caamora before Tull even begins his story).

Quote:
Even through his excitement, Troy sensed something strange in Tull's voice, something that sounded like pain. But he could not wait to hear it explained. Before Lord Mhoram could reply, Troy repeated, "Where are they?"
"They?" said the Bloodguard.
"The Giants! How far behind are they?"
Tull turned deliberately away from him to face Lord Mhoram.


Troy's presumption of good news, and his persistence in that presumption, are rubbed like caustic into the open wound of Tull's untold tale--which already Tull isn't quite able to conceal, if only Troy had been paying attention.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: The Illearth War--Chapter 17 Reply with quote

In my re-read prior to FR, I came across a couple of things in this chapter I'm curious about. First:

Quote:
[Hyrim] had to shout to make himself heard over the roar of waves and wind and thunder. "We must stop him! He violates the Sea! If he succeeds - if he bends the Sea to his will - the Law that preserves it will be broken. It will serve the Despiser like another Raver!"


So maybe I'm being dense, maybe it's unimportant, or both, but do we have any idea what Law is being referred to here?

Second:

Quote:
At last the Bloodguard fell silent. For a long time, Troy sat gazing sightlessly at the Stone before him. He felt deaf and numb - too shocked to hear the low breeze blowing around Kevin's Watch, too stunned to feel the chill of the mountain air.


The Stone? What? Korik & Co. have the Stone, not Tull. I suppose it could be a reference to the Watch itself (Stone and Sea), but a mistakenly capitalized 's' seems to make more sense.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that you are right about the capitol S. It is highly doubtful that it refers to the Illearth Stone, a fragment of which Troy could see from the Watch.

The Law ... the Law...

There's a number of times where Donaldson refers to specific, named Laws. The Law of Death, for example. And there are other times where he refers to Law in a more general way. He does so here; he does so again later in the book in the chapter Gallows Howe.

In this general way, Law refers to something akin to the laws of physics, but, being in a fantasy world, that's not exactly accurate - they have some magic to them as well, and they're not as absolute. But they are still essentially a set of rules for governing how the world is supposed to work.

The Sea (capitolized, like the Land) is governed by those rules, like anything else.

But I don't think that merely tossing it about and making it do things is sufficient to break Law. If it was, it'd be breaking Law to, as Trell had done, raise the stone to ford a river, or to grow Revelwood, or to do a lot of other things.

I think that the giant Raver was doing more than compelling the Sea, he was "violating it" - he was altering something so fundamenal that it would be breaking Law. Breaking Law takes power -- lots of it -- and he had that power in the fragment of the Illearth Stone. But I don't think the author grants us knowledge of what exactly the giant Raver was "violating". I can imagine he was altering some utter essence of the Sea itself, fundamentally changing it so that it could serve the Despiser.

Spoiler:
If you look at it another way, this is very similar to Elena's actions later in the story. By compelling the Dead to do her bidding, Elena broke the Law of Death. By compelling the Sea, some other, similar Law would be broken. But, again, don't ask me which one.


Similarly, we are never really told what the Despiser planned to do with a Sea which was successfully violated and under his command.

But does it matter?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayfriend wrote:
There's a number of times where Donaldson refers to specific, named Laws. The Law of Death, for example. And there are other times where he refers to Law in a more general way. He does so here; he does so again later in the book in the chapter Gallows Howe.

In this general way, Law refers to something akin to the laws of physics, but, being in a fantasy world, that's not exactly accurate - they have some magic to them as well, and they're not as absolute. But they are still essentially a set of rules for governing how the world is supposed to work.


When I read it, I assumed it was one of those general Laws that he occasionally mentions, but I wanted to make sure. If someone asked SRD, this would probably fall under the same category as the seventh (unknown) Word. Does it matter? Probably not; IIRC, the Last Chronicles weren't yet envisioned when he was writing the First Chronicles, so most of the loopholes that he placed are probably nearly all in the Second Chronicles.

Figured it doesn't hurt to keep an eye out, though.

Wayfriend wrote:
Similarly, we are never really told what the Despiser planned to do with a Sea which was successfully violated and under his command.


Going out on a limb (which will be funny in just a second), I'd say that at least one of Foul's reason of desiring mastery over the Sea would be keeping the One Tree isolated from the Land. Mmm, specu-licious.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Niftium wrote:

Going out on a limb (which will be funny in just a second), I'd say that at least one of Foul's reason of desiring mastery over the Sea would be keeping the One Tree isolated from the Land. Mmm, specu-licious.


That's a really interesting idea. I doubt that Donaldson intended this connection when he originally wrote that scene, but there's no reason he couldn't have built upon it when he was writing the 2nd Chronicles. After all, the Quest for the One Tree leaves the Land in that very spot.

The sea may have a Law (capital "L") just like death or life or any of the others. I tend to disagree with Wayfriend about the Law in Gallow's Howe (the Law of Identity), but we've already gone round and round on that one. But just as the Laws of Death and Life kept the living and the dead separate, there's no reason why the sea wouldn't require a similar restraint to distinguish it from Land. After all, when you mix the two (e.g. a tsunami, hurricane, melting ice caps, etc.), it's usually not for the better. (And this is yet another reason why I think the Law of Identity is important--Laws seems to be important precisely in the distinctions they maintain between states or entities. Chaos, corruption, and entropy is a loss of meaningful distinctions. The distinctions between people are obviously important to Donaldson, or he wouldn't spend so much time talking about possession.)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This (and the previous chapter about the trip through the Sarangrave) were the worst things Lord Foul does throughout the books for me. The horror is beyond anything else.

I think the 'Law of the Sea' that Hyrim thinks the Raver will break is about its impartiality. It serves no one and treat all who try to pass through it the same way.

If Kinslaughterer manages to compel the Sea to its will it will become like another Raver, a hater of living beings and more specifically a hater of giants. That is what its song is about. Teaching the sea to think like it does.

The Ravers' hatred is focused on the trees and forests of the Land. The Sea would then focus its hatred on the giants and their ships. Thus Kinslaughterer hopes to not only destroy the Unhomed but the entire species of Giants.

I think the slaughter of the giants before the casting of the spell is necessary. Lord Foul after all has a much bigger stone and he doesn't compel the sea to do anything.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If Kinslaughterer manages to compel the Sea to its will it will become like another Raver, a hater of living beings and more specifically a hater of giants. That is what its song is about. Teaching the sea to think like it does.

The Ravers' hatred is focused on the trees and forests of the Land. The Sea would then focus its hatred on the giants and their ships. Thus Kinslaughterer hopes to not only destroy the Unhomed but the entire species of Giants.


Very interesting points!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
If Kinslaughterer manages to compel the Sea to its will it will become like another Raver, a hater of living beings and more specifically a hater of giants. That is what its song is about. Teaching the sea to think like it does.

The Ravers' hatred is focused on the trees and forests of the Land. The Sea would then focus its hatred on the giants and their ships. Thus Kinslaughterer hopes to not only destroy the Unhomed but the entire species of Giants.

I think the slaughter of the giants before the casting of the spell is necessary. Lord Foul after all has a much bigger stone and he doesn't compel the sea to do anything.


I believe you've got it exactly right, Shadowbinding Shoe! The Giants, loving their voyaging upon the Sea, would be very easy targets for destruction by Lord Foul if Kinslaughterer hadn't been stopped by Hyrim and the Bloodguard. You have employed very impressive reasoning here! You Rock
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