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TLD Part 1 Chapter 6..Promises Old and New

 
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:38 am    Post subject: TLD Part 1 Chapter 6..Promises Old and New Reply with quote

Andre Breton, the " God Father" of Surrealism, put together an "Anthology of Humor Noir", back in 1935. He renews the idea of gallows humor, modernizes it with examples from Swift to Carroll and calls it " Black Humor". As some have put it about the darkest , thus greatest humor, it is the humor that has us seeing ..that which we rather would Not be or see, about ourselves. Chapter 6,Promises Old and New, is by parable , a great Black Humor exposition, that Linden gets to be the brunt of the joke and thus the most enlightened by it.

The setting of the chapter begins in harsh grey,,proceeds to darkest night and ends with a hint of sunrise that never comes; Dark Humor indeed. If Humor is based in irony, Linden begins the chapter conflicted by all the irony. There is no Sun, no way to tell Time,,but that her heart keeps beating tells her her life continues. " Blurred terrain" as movement , tells her "Time endures." Metaphors turn dark for Linden;" Accentuated by dull light, the bloodstains that darkened the bottoms of Jeremiah's pajamas seemed to creep higher, opening like jaws to swallow him." A great line there imho..the alliteration is excellent, there is simile inside of metaphor and the poetic contrasts between, blood stains ,pajamas, light and dark and then the dark, deathly chill of,," creep higher , opening like jaws to swallow him,," YAAHAA!
The irony , contrasts continue to mess up Linden's mind..the hope of crepuscular blight, versus Kevins Dirt..the stamina and will of the Ranyhyn versus the physical limitations of even the Giants. In the middle of this irony ,the Land becomes the Surreal of a Dali painting, the Perspective of Time and Space blending into each other becoming one…" Now they measured out the leagues across a hammered plain that appeared to stretch endlessly into an obscured future." The author paints the Surreal with his own alliteration. Okay, how about any body who has driven across the middle plains of America; they would know the sensation. The author/ storyteller again reinforces the Dark , the Noir , with , " Gloaming effaced the details of the landscape, rendered it effectively featureless in every direction." …But Linden still clings to the things anchored in linear logic of Time and Space,,," Still the eaten chart of the stars and Linden's tarnished health-sense confirmed that the horses had not altered their heading. They reached for the northeast with every stride, never hesitating." hhhmm..the Great Horses are already Time and Space unified..Intuition, And there is the set up for the dark humor joke of the rest of this chapter.

First..get rid of the Giants. Seems odd to rid the telling of the very characterizations of jovial wit and bawdy shennanigans..Their exit is another way of saying ,,its funny that what follows while of humor , isn't " funny" as in , say,,"another fine mess you've gotten me into" Laurel and Hardy slapstick routine. No, what follows is the incongruent flavor of comedy..the kind of humor that shows us what we rather Not be or see, but still are..the kind of humor than could possibly motivate , possibly change us..the humor of Jonathan Swift in his Gulliver's Travels for an example. Thanks to Mahrtiir for pointing out the obvious and planting the seed the bears much fruit in later chapters. But to this chapter,,its narrowed down to Linden, Jerry, Stave, the Ranyhyn, , and a few surprise guests. Let the Comedy of Errors proceed. Down the rabbit hole we go.

Jerry's inexperience at this begins with a punch line …that is so hackneyed,,well it heralds the Comedy of Errors.." Thats easy for you to say.." its the classic retort when some one mangles their line..we are not perfect,,can we laff at ourselves? oh..btw,,before I go any further,,yes , I invoke the Woodster's great observation.."a great joke dissected , dies on the operating table. " But,,Humor Noir , Gallows Humor, is very familiar with death and will survive this dissect as a result.. This chapter is actually a work of Art therefore it will survive. Anyway,,do I sense a little Weill/Brecht Alabama Song in Jerry's hunger?…" Oh show me, the way, to the next aliantha bush..oh don't ask why. Oh don't ask why….Well,
Lindens lack of nourishment has her drifting off into paranoia. Her darkness takes over as she spirals down the rabbit hole. Words like frustration, reluctance, appalled, loathed describe her mental state as she clings to her necessity for Time to remain intact.

Then Stave drops the incongruent, inexplicable, complete ironic,,," yet now our path tends towards the Sarangrave." The comedy of errors begins in the blackness of her fears. Asked " why", which is clear signal as to ..the wrong question to ask,,( should have been, "How is it ?") and anyway, Stave with his great stoic ability to deduce and reason, logically, surmises,,horses require fodder..Yes folks..that is Black Humor..Humor Noir..its Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland..Its Alice saying.." I've seen cat with a smile, but I've never seen a smile without a cat. "..The Ranyhyn don't fear much..but they sure as whinny have a collective fear of The Lurker..for good reason..But the simple..horses need fodder..why heck, sure as shooting, that must be the answer.(said with great sarcasm).The comedy is in how Stave and Linden justify to themselves with their own PRETENSE , what is taking place. And they are all wrong.

WE know they are all wrong. The author in his good graces and fellowship towards all of mankind,,has already included us in the know. We know there is to be a rendezvous between Linden and the feroce and their God even,,and why and how it is..but Linden does not. From that WE Can See,,how Fears, and prejudices guide Linden's thoughts and actions. Her Pretense,,believing the Bullschitt her dark fears have taught her..and putting it forward as truth..Pretense..is darkly humorous here. And by the way of her..we can see our selves.

And to make it painfully clear, this humor Noir, Linden makes a deal with Stave..to not let the Lurker get the burnt stick,,and not let the feroce have their way with Linden's inner sanctum. Amazingly,,the story teller is going along with all this as if it hadn't ever told the tale of the lurker/ Worm encounter. I love it!!



The author drops the little parable of the dirty tasting tubers in to the story. Jerry gets to the center of it… pretty good if you can pretend you don't taste them..He has become Alice.
How much of our …that which we would rather not be or not see of ourselves..do we just pretend we are not or see not, and with that, smooth over our uncomfortableness when its made clear our fears and prejudices are still with us..still allowed to be part of who we are? Fascinating, later in the chapter, at its conclusion..the mass of hard to digest tubers in Lindens gut..causes her discomfiture to the degree that she forgoes any more..She learns the hard way about a load of crap. She has no more appetite for Pretense. Fascinating, much later in the Tale, the author revisits the idea of Pretense,,and its Jerry 's turn, possibly being wiser from the lesson of this chapter.

But Linden ate a Stave knuckle sandwich. It was agreed on. That was the deal and Stave , like his Choice Challenged brothers was unable to see beyond that. Linden is too slow to put the clues together,,to confined by her own fears and prejudices to figure why the Ranyhyn left the 3 behind,, why only 3 feroce approached. And she puts up a false front and is immediately felled by it. The jaws of irony, deep, black, humor noir,open up and swallows her whole . Forbidding…DOH!..Just Say No..And just as it all connects, the beauty is hers..its POW! ZOOM! A Trip to the Moon! One of these days, Alice, becomes Now!.

The Comedy of Errors continues. Jerry gets it wrong with his immaturity, " did you have to hit her so hard?…..Stave is too strong"…aaahhhmm..howabout not hitting her at all? Challenged Stave can only say ..hey, i'm not psychic, she looked like she was under the glamor..and uhhh..if I hurt you that much..you can heal yourself,,with this stick I saved from the lurker..here…What a load of crap. But..kinda like TC's getting the Evil lurker to do a Good Thing with the Worm..Linden sees the error of her State of Mind, thank you very much Ranyhyn,,and is left with the realization of what she must inevitably do..To keep the promise made to Wildwood, she would return to that time and place with an answer, that would save the day from the monster Worm.She knows by doing that, she will inevitably have to leave her son, abandon him to his own will and abilities; Every mothers rendezvous with Life. She also knows..the Truth of the Tubers and what other rendezvous that points to in the future. By getting the Pretense knocked out of her she sees clearly and is overwhelmed by what she sees. Thats Humor Noir.

Linden comes to,,with the luker giving her the equivalent of a high 5. And there is Jerry glomming in on the event and Stave,,still missing what has transpired, in his Challenged State..warning Jerry that the lurker is malevolent and then telling Linden to spill the beans so,,now get this,,so WE can interpret the lurkers intent …Linden surveys the after effects of Staves punch to her forehead and decides to lay a bit of her own humor noir on Stave.." Well, I know one thing, anyway, This is what the Ranyhyn were hoping for.." Stave continues to press Linden as she attempts to dodge the reveal of her understandings. Jerry jumps in and forces her to obfuscate.,half truths.Like Alice,,Jerry replies..That makes sense..I guess…Stave says naught..and the faux sun rise begins…Its no laughing matter, now that Linden has been brought to the real, honest and actual changes required of her .

So now both TC and Linden have their relationship with the lurker and feroce and are changed by it as is the lurker and the feroce changed. More to come. Interesting it is that there seems a promise of the future for both feroce and lurker from all this Covenant Avery deal making…As well,,an understanding of how Stave , as much as he tries,,is still a prisoner of his …heritage.
..Here is a quote in the second section upon dismounting at the Sarangrave, " If I discern water which we may drink without harm, I will guide you to it.."…well thats mitey nice of you Stave…and of course,,if he doesn't discern any drinkable water, he won't be guiding any one to it. point being..Stave can only be Stave..with logic like that..yeeooow..Seems to me another Alice in Wonderland surrealness there. Now , for the Real Joke..Lewis Carroll, real name Charles Dodgson,,was a mediocre mathematician but did contribute to binary Logic problems and definitely played with Logic in Wonderland and Looking Glass. The early surrealists loved Carrolls mockery of ill used logic. So Donaldson continues to beat the crap out of the black and white non feeling Haruchai as a fate they created for themselves. Makes perfect sense to me.

What really gets me here..is that I am made to feel but ain't too sure what it is I am feeling..a pathos for Stave for being kinda stupid or Linden for not seeing what she created..or for the situation that the author created , that is cause and effect for all the wrong reasons..The failure of logic is obvious but quite reasonable in its cause. Its Alice in Wonderland .And, perhaps in the most Surreal manner..the Lurker salutes her …whatthehell!!!!.Linden takes one for the Surreal!! .Linden realizes its the Ranyhyn she was to be trusting, the Instinctual! They knew what was to go on here long before any one else did.And poor reasonable Stave is still guarding against the Lurker at end of chapter. One more drink of the water tho..to help swallow the changes brought to Linden in this chapter. Its all of a comedy level..dark..befitting the lack of sunrise. Its funny, its sad, its all wrong , a comedy of errors, but it ends right. As Jerry puts it as if he was Alice…." that makes sense, i guess"

Promises Old Is the promise Linden made to Wildwood in Gallows Howe. Promises New exemplifies the Trust that Wildwood placed in Linden back then, that would take millennia for Linden to come back and fulfill. Wow, a trust that extends outside the strictures of Time…beauty. The new promise also means for Linden..that she will have to break an earlier promise to never leave Jeremiah again. Ouch..thats pretense for you.

This chapter is a demonstration in subtlety. At first not much of a blip on the radar screen of drama, especially after the incredible of the TC centered chapters preceding. But there is masterful writing in this chapter . The author takes us in on the trip to the Saragrave,,hook line and sinker and before we know it..Linden is on the ground knocked out by Stave..Its then,,I realized, the author was showing me a bit of my own pretense. The author was telling a parable about pretense and I didn't realize it until Linden got punched out by Stave. It was then the little side story of the dirty tasting tubers demanded some thought. If not by now, certainly by now..I am starting to realize that this Donaldson guy, in the LC and even more so in TLD,,is exceeding my expectations and I'm needing some help to grasp it all. Its easy to get "points" on the high drama stuff but garnering appreciation for your masterly subtle within a chapter ,to across books ,to across volumes ,is no easy feat. The author demands adjustments to ones own perspective. Yea,,taking a salute from the lurker!

In any case, the lurker and feroce now have Hope thanks to TC and Linden. That makes much of the second half possible. The "other reality" of our Memory is played masterfully in this chapter. Linden is punched out by her memory of the feroce and lurker..yet led to salvation for the Land and herself with longest term Memory. Yea, memory is subjective,but its still part of our experience and being. It can get you punched out as well as saved. It depends on your own state of mind.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for starting us off, lurch. This chapter seemed straightforward and blasé to me. It's good to find that there is more. I am fond of saying: there are no unimportant chapters.

- - -

I thought one of the important, or at least interesting passages, was where Linden was talking to Jeremiah about failure.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
“That’s nonsense.” Instinctively she responded as if he were a normal boy, able to hear her. “Failure isn’t something you are. It’s something you do.” She needed to hear what she was saying. With every word, she pleaded for an answer to her mute dread. “Having the courage to escape your prison is who you are. Wanting to help the Elohim because the world needs them is who you are. My son is who you are. Everything else is just making mistakes, or not having the right materials or enough help, or not knowing enough, or trying to do something that’s actually impossible. It just happens. It isn’t who you are.”

This is Linden talking to her son. But she is also talking about herself as well. Trying to sway her son, she was pleading for herself. Don't condemn Linden for rousing the Worm. That is't who she is.

And the author here is repeating himself more than that. The Giants have said this. “Let us confront the challenge of these times together. While we do what we can, there is no fault in failure.” And Covenant also has thought like this. Therefore no failure, here or anywhere, could be held against him. He was still looking for a way to forgive himself for being human and afraid.

This emerges again in the redemption of the Haruchai, as well. No spoilers here ... But see the connection between Linden's comments above, and Stave's "It is by grief and regret that you know yourselves”. You know yourself by what you care for, not by what you accomplish. It's not surprising, then, that Linden then murmured his name to him as if it confirmed his worth.

(Branl just diced up his friend. Guess where he does and does not want to find his worth.)

That this is a central theme is apparent here. The interplay of Failure and Identity. Of Worth and Love.

For Donaldson, I think, this is a revelation which parents discover. Parents are proud of their children, even when they fail. All they have to do is think about it to know why that is so.

In The Last Dark was wrote:
"But listen to me. In a way, I’ve only known you for a day and a half, and already I’m so proud of you that I don’t have any words big enough for it. Now I understand what parents mean when they talk about their hearts bursting.”


- - -

lurch wrote:
Promises Old Is the promise Linden made to Wildwood in Gallows Howe.

Indeed. This chapter is where we pick up that old plot-line and weave it back into the main cloth. Remember forbidding.

The lurker is the one behind pulling this all together. Which is fascinating. Certainly we are getting some more good from our evil means.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" the interplay of Failure and Identity. Of worth and Love. Yes sir!..fascinating it is how..with Jeremiah out of the graveyard, accessible, Linden finally gets to " grow' her Love ,,and of course with Thomas " returned" ,Linden's Love also " grows". And of course,,it all is for, it all comes back to...her.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Real Life example of what the author demonstrates in chapter 6; A story on the radio this last week was about ..how there are more deaths from hurricanes that are named with female names.Yes, female named hurricanes cause more deaths than male named hurricanes...True and here is why...Female named hurricanes raise less concern, less worry, less " care " than male named hurricanes. Male named hurricanes get people's Attention better than female named hurricanes. So,,more precaution is taken, more seriously the storm is taken..if it is named Male. That equates to fewer deaths. Female named hurricanes are taken less seriously and unfortunately that leads to less precaution which equates to..more deaths. A culturally induced pretense is responsible for a weeding out of the gene pool....now thats Humor Noire Real
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the hurricane study was sloppy scholarship...but there is an entire thread about that in the Tank, so I will leave it at that. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Actually, the hurricane study was sloppy scholarship...but there is an entire thread about that in the Tank, so I will leave it at that. Rolling Eyes


Good point!..I need not have left Kevins Watch for perfect examples of Pretense.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Promises Old Is the promise Linden made to Wildwood in Gallows Howe. Promises New exemplifies the Trust that Wildwood placed in Linden back then, that would take millennia for Linden to come back and fulfill.


Promises New could also refer to the recent promise made by the Feroce to deliver Covenant's message for Linden to remember forbidding. I find it an interesting constrast that the last time the Feroce imposed glamour upon Linden was to get her to lose her way and throw the Staff; this time they use glamour to help her find her way to obtain forbidding for the Land by the Caerroil Wildwood memories they conjure up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..CH...yes, also a subtle change ..from save OR dam..to Save AND Dam.

The complete " unknown" or mystery of what is going to happen with this Worm,,causes changes in the characters. " Trust " becomes so thick in the atmosphere you can taste it. By trusting TC ,the feroce and lurker divert the Worm, and slow down the inevitable clock..Delivering the Forbidding message ..." how do you go on,,when you know all things die?..There Always Is Love...that how...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Trust " becomes so thick in the atmosphere you can taste it.


Absolutely, lurch, and that's what I found to be one of the most gratifying things about reading this chapter.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Thanks to Mahrtiir for pointing out the obvious


This is indeed what he is good for ever since losing his sight. Ironically enough, he can see what should be apparent to the others, but the rest of the company are always emotionally caught up in other concerns to stay focused on the obvious. This was first demonstrated when everybody else was upset that Covenant's resurrection woke the Worm, and Marty remembered that Covenant needed to eat, for crying out loud!

Quote:
At a time that should have been mid-morning, Manethrall Mahrtiir brought Narunal to Hyn's side. "Ringthane," he called over the clatter of hooves, "we must consider what we do. If we do not soon gain our aim, the Giants will be too weary to aid your son. That they have come so far at such a pace bespeaks both great strength and great valor. Yet they are mortal withal. Ere long, even they must falter."

"What do you suggest?" Linden could sustain the Swordmainnir with Earthpower for a while. But repeated infusions of imposed energy would exact a price. The women might well be left utterly prostrate when her assistance finally lost its efficacy. Earthpower and Law were only Earthpower and Law: they could not counteract the organic need for food and water and rest indefinitely. And Linden was reluctant for other reasons as well. Speed might be Jeremiah's only defense. "Of course they need rest. We all do. But the Worm is coming. You said it yourself. We have to hurry."

Mahrtiir faced her with disgust in his mien, but it was not directed at her. "For that reason, Ringthane, I deem that we must part again. While you accompany your son with Stave, I will remain to guide the Giants at a slower pace. Their aid may be much delayed, but they will rejoin you capable of sid."

As if he expected Linden to demur, he added harshly, "I serve no other purpose to this company. But I am able to ride brave Narunal, and to obey him--aye, and also to comprehend his wishes. Therefore I await your consent."

Linden saw that Jeremiah was listening; felt protests rise in him. She phrased her reply for his sake as much as Mahrtiir's.

"That makes sense. Exhaustion won't help any of us." She forced a wry smile. "And if anyone can convince Coldspray to be reasonable, you can. Maybe Stave and I can help Jeremiah make a start without you."

Jeremiah brandished a fist in approval.

But Mahrtiir hesitated. "Then I crave a boon of you, Ringthane," he said after a moment. "Restore my discernment to its fullest, that my use to the Swordmainnir may be prolonged. It will not endure. Of that I am aware. But I yearn to postpone the return of complete futility."

In spite of herself, Linden was loathe to comply. She did not want to raise the black fire in a lightless world. The prospect felt like a violation. Yet she could not refuse the Manethrall. Had her fears been his, he would have faced them at once, eager for struggle and combat.

Adjusting her grip on the Staff of Law, she reached for Earthpower.

As she had expected or dreaded, her flames were barely visible. Their force was palpable enough, and to an extent comforting. But they were the hue of Jeremiah's fouled pajamas, the color of deepest night, and they seemed to thicken the gloom around them.

Nevertheless her magic was an expression of Law. Its inherent beneficence had not been altered. She had turned the wood to ebony in battle under Melenkurion Skyweir. In the graveyard of Jeremiah's mind, she had become a form of blackness herself. If her power disturbed her now, it did so because it told the truth about her.

As if she were abasing herself, she covered first Mahrtiir and then herself in cleansing theurgy. And when her senses had recovered their acuity, she extended fire to the Giants, gifting them with all of the vitality that she could provide.

Then Linden quenched her Staff. Slumping on Hyn's back, she told Mahrtiir weakly, "Be safe. Catch up when you can. We'll need you.

Clarion as a whinny, the Manethrall replied, "Fear nothing, Ringthane. We will come." Then he drew Narunal back from Linden's side so he could speak to Rime Coldspray.


In truth, blindness hasn't stopped Mahrtiir from being irreplaceable to the company; his special worth comes from both his common sense and his inarguably superior ability to interpret the plans of the Ranyhyn. It may even be he knows what is about to happen with the lurker, and that he should stay quiet about it. Speculation, I know--but not unthinkable.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Come on, Jeremiah muttered. "Come on." Then he sighed. "I'm hungry. I hope we find aliantha soon."

Sternly Stave remarked, "In the ages of the Lords, there were no aliantha on the Lower Land to the south of Lifeswallower. We are fortunate that they have taken root here during more recent millennia, sparse though they may be. But we cannot know how they were spread, or by whom. If we have ridden beyond their extent, we have no redress for their absence."


There is something I wanted to say about this, as it pertains to the Land's history. In TPTP, when Covenant and Foamfollower make their way eastward to confront Lord Foul, TC recalls hearing that aliantha did not grow on the Spoiled Plains. But in TWL, we learn the Lords after Mhoram were able to do much to ease the barrenness of the Spoiled Plains, ere the Council became corrupted into the Clave. As the Despiser never bothered to extend the Sunbane across the Lower Land much away from Landsdrop, it would appear that the work of the later (post-Mhoram) Lords in this part of the Land has had an enduring effect. There is something about this that I find satisfying. Mhoram's leadership in inspiring the Council of Lords to find new ways to serve the Earth has had lasting benefits, after all.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following quote takes place after Linden and Jeremiah have had a discussion about failure.

Quote:
"Mom." Jeremiah was crying openly now. "Mom, stop. Please. I need--I need--"

She understood that as well. Who would, if she did not? Remembering Anele--remembering Must and Cannot and the old man's last valor, an act of self-confrontation that humbled her--she dropped her Staff and swept her son into her arms. Hugging him tightly, she murmured his name to him as if it confirmed his worth.

Like a young boy, he sobbed hard for a moment--and like a teenager, he suppressed his pain quickly. For a heart beat or two, he held his mother as she held him. Then he let go of her, stepped back from her clasp. Snuffling loudly, he rubbed his face with both hands, wiped his nose on his forearm. In a congested voice, he asked, "What's taking Stave so long? The Flat is right over ther." He gestured uselessly in the darkness. "I'm hungry. He should be back by now."

Well, he was a fifteen-year-old boy, embarrassed by what he considered a show of weakness. For his sake, Linden smiled ruefully. Her sigh of regret she kept to herself.


It's been said by others on the Watch before me, but the way SRD writes Jeremiah is very realistic for describing an adolescent. It is a lot like teenagers to be suddenly emotional about fears and then be ashamed of it and try to change the subject, as Jeremiah does when he appears to complain about Stave's punctuality. He's a very believable character!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering the many roles Haruchai have played in Revelstone (Bloodguard, sacrifices, Masters) and all of the historical record contained within that edifice, who is ir that Stave does not possess any shared knowledge of the Lords work to revitalize the Spoiled Plains?

Do we conclude that this took place after the departure of the Bloodguard and before the Haruchai returned from their mountain fastness to the Land? And that either the Lords left no record of their works or the Clave suppressed that so completely that the Masters never found any trace during millennia in Revelstone?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Do we conclude that this took place after the departure of the Bloodguard and before the Haruchai returned from their mountain fastness to the Land? And that either the Lords left no record of their works or the Clave suppressed that so completely that the Masters never found any trace during millennia in Revelstone?


Both could be true, Savor Dam! I don't think any of Stave's people were around to witness the Lords (post-Mhoram, pre-Clave) in their healing projects involving the Spoiled Plains of the Lower Land. And I wouldn't be surprised if Sheol had tried to erase knowledge of history to suit his purpose of manipulating the people of the Land.
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