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The Illearth War: Chapters 5 & 6
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy claims to be a tactical genius. I don't know what else the Lords could have based their decision to make him the Warmark on. He must have won all the mock-battles they had pretty handily to have, in a few short years, taken the job away from a man that they all knew and loved, and who had tons of experience as a warrior and leader.

I'll tell you what went wrong. We're losing sight of the fact that the Land is a dream! A part of Covenant wanted to give himself strong doubt, and so concocted Troy. But when it came right down to it, Covenant knew nothing of strategy and warfare. Therefore Troy didn't either. The mock-battles, since Covenant was running both sides, were probably very dull. But then Covenant made Fleshharrower's army so huge that he couldn't figure out a strategy to fight it.

Very Happy Wink

On some thread or another, some of us were trying to figure out why the Lords chose Elena to be High Lord. Actually using the Power of Command, despite having been told an extremely good reason not to, a reason that gave even Kevin pause, was nothing better than arrogant and reckless. I'm sure she was proficient in the manipulation of Earthpower, but I never saw reason to believe she was any better than Mhoram. Could she have been chosen for no reason other than the fact that she knew the marrowmeld? (And I wonder why she didn't teach anyone else how to do it. You'd think the Lords' mind-meld would have spread that ability.) Real or dream, maybe these particular Lords simply weren't good at choosing leaders; not for themselves or for the Warward.


DsoD,
I suspect the aging process is slowed down by exposure to Earthpower. The more exposure, the slower the user ages. Atiaran didn't do much with Earthpower that I remember.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'll tell you what went wrong. We're losing sight of the fact that the Land is a dream! A part of Covenant wanted to give himself strong doubt, and so concocted Troy. But when it came right down to it, Covenant knew nothing of strategy and warfare. Therefore Troy didn't either. The mock-battles, since Covenant was running both sides, were probably very dull. But then Covenant made Fleshharrower's army so huge that he couldn't figure out a strategy to fight it


F&F, remember that some of us, myself included, believe that the Land is real and not a dream at all. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FaF, I don`t really see how Marrowmeld could be a good enough reason for them to chose Elena..You don`t win a war with sculptures, unless they`re very big and you can throw them in the heads of your enemies. Very Happy

Maybe the ability to Marrowmeld is a gift of some sort, like Mhoram being an oracle. In that case, she couldn`t have taught it.

Elena was chosen during a session of mind-melding, wasn`t she? I don`t think that the Lords had reasons for choosing her, it was a sub-conscious thing. Their combined nine brains told them that she was the best choice.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caamora wrote:
F&F, remember that some of us, myself included, believe that the Land is real and not a dream at all.
Smile Me too. That's why I added Very Happy Wink

Dag son of Dag wrote:
FaF, I don`t really see how Marrowmeld could be a good enough reason for them to chose Elena..You don`t win a war with sculptures, unless they`re very big and you can throw them in the heads of your enemies. Very Happy
I quite agree. I wasn't supporting their decision to make her High Lord based on this, I was just saying that it's the most obvious thing that sets her apart.

Although, hmm, maybe they thought that being the daughter of the White Gold Wielder was reason enough to make her High Lord.

Dag son of Dag wrote:
Maybe the ability to Marrowmeld is a gift of some sort, like Mhoram being an oracle. In that case, she couldn`t have taught it.
She learned it from the Ranyhyn when they used to take her away as a child.

Dag son of Dag wrote:
Elena was chosen during a session of mind-melding, wasn`t she? I don`t think that the Lords had reasons for choosing her, it was a sub-conscious thing. Their combined nine brains told them that she was the best choice.
Yes, it's possible the the meld gave them all the impression that she was the best choice, but didn't leave them with clear reasons.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it`s not like they set around the table and discussed the pros and cons of the candidates..they just chose. Maybe the Earthpower was involved during the mindmeld, or something.[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

duchess of malfi wrote:
To me he has always been one of those people who is "book-smart" but perhaps lacking in needed experience.
But I am certainly no military planner, so my two cents are probably fairly useless. twocents
I think Damelon is a history buff. Maybe he can shed some good light on tactics and what have you. Very Happy Someone go drag him in here! Twisted Evil


I'll put in my twocents on HT. To me he seems like a poor strategist. Basing the army in Revelstone to begin with is a mistake, the army is a far way away from anywhere. If it was based in Andelain it could react much quicker to where ever LF decided to come up from the Lower Land, and not burn out the army in the process of marching. That is compounded by marching way south to a place where there is a desert to the back of your army.

What works in Troy's favor is that Fleshharrower is more incompetent than Troy. Troy leaves Fleshharrower's army between itself and the Land. If Fleshharrower were smart, he would just leave enough of his army to keep Troy from coming back, and then go straight to Revelwood and Revelstone where there is hardly anyone left to defend those places. But he isn't smart, he chases Troy all the way around to Garrotting Deep, wasting his own huge army.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dag son of Dag wrote:
FaF, I don`t really see how Marrowmeld could be a good enough reason for them to chose Elena..You don`t win a war with sculptures, unless they`re very big and you can throw them in the heads of your enemies. Very Happy

Maybe the ability to Marrowmeld is a gift of some sort, like Mhoram being an oracle. In that case, she couldn`t have taught it.

Elena was chosen during a session of mind-melding, wasn`t she? I don`t think that the Lords had reasons for choosing her, it was a sub-conscious thing. Their combined nine brains told them that she was the best choice.


Hile Troy said that the Lords chose Elena as the High Lord for some inner quality that she had that made her, which he didn't quite understand. Here's my understanding of it:

(1) Elena was young, engergetic, and very passionate about the Land. She's very persuasive and charismatic, and thus could "rally the troups" really well.

Spoiler:
(2) She's the daughter of TC. Maybe the Lords thought that she would be much more able to persuade TC to help them even though they always went back to their common, "we can't force him to help us; we just want him there just in case and to make sure we've explored all the options to win the war." I realize that Elena was the High Lord two years before TC was Summoned. However, the Lords were probably still trying to figure out how to Summon him during this time.


Spoiler:
(3) Elena was the daughter of TC. This reason goes back to the theory that the Creator has chosen TC to save the Land. The Creator must have chosen TC for some special reason, like some inner mettle that TC possesses. Maybe Elena also possesses this same inner mettle too so let's pick her for High Lord.


The most obvious candidate Mhoram has many of these same qualities. Instead of (1), he has universal respect from everyone, (2) he's a very good friend of TC, andSpoiler:
(3) from Lord Mhoram's Victory prophecy, he also has inner mettle.
As Mhoram says, however, maybe it just wasn't his time at that point.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
Don't forget 4) she had been chosen by the Ranyhyn - yet another testimony of her worthiness.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Coming back at this after a multiple gap...)

Troy's plan actually has many good elements... the chief factor that defeats him is simply that Foul's army is so big; he could have defeated a force several times his own size, five or ten times, but Foul had five or ten times that. (Note: Despite is boundless and unfathomable.)

He keeps the Warward in one place because he has to train them, and train them to work together. (Personally I'd suggest doing in the Central Plains, with better location, but Revelstone probably was the only industrial base with enough forges, horse stables, etc., etc.; those take decades to build up.) He can't deploy too far forward because if he's camped north of Andelain he can't stop an army marching past the Colossus, and if he's down at the Colossus an army marching north of Andelain or through Mount Thunder will reach Revelwood and Revelstone before he can get in their way. Pre-preparing the rafts would have been a good idea, but I suspect we just run into a situation where the Land doesn't have the productive capacity to prepare lots and lots of things just in case.

Getting some kind of beacon system set up would have been really handy, but Troy is probably pinning his hopes on the Loresraat figuring out radio first (and, indeed, they do so almost quickly enough).
(Not running "what happens if my scouts are ambushed" situations is a bad idea, but the think-tank experience probably didn't include that sort of stuff; a lot of 1960s or 1970s projections turned out in hindsight to be very simplistic; Troy needed to have someone read Clausewitz on friction to him.)

Another point: I suspect that Troy's think-tank usually analyzed situations which were roughly balanced (there's no point in analyzing a hopelessly outmatched situation... but that was the sort of situation he found himself in.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spoiler:
I know it's been some time since anyone commented on this thread, but I want to comment that tonyz has identified the heart of Troy's problem: whether Troy was exaggerating his abilities as a strategist, or not, he could not have anticipated what he'd be up against. The Illearth Stone's ability to warp beings and apparently speed up their reproduction is beyond his (or anyone else's) comprehension.

tonyz:
"Troy's plan actually has many good elements... the chief factor that defeats him is simply that Foul's army is so big; he could have defeated a force several times his own size, five or ten times, but Foul had five or ten times that. (Note: Despite is boundless and unfathomable.)...Another point: I suspect that Troy's think-tank usually analyzed situations which were roughly balanced (there's no point in analyzing a hopelessly outmatched situation... but that was the sort of situation he found himself in.)"



{Spoiler shouldn't be uncovered until after reading TIW chapter 20, but my post here is a follow-up to tonyz's point.}
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