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Hile Troy - What a Berk!!!
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deer of the dawn
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I did like, though, when Cov was telling Troy he didn't know what it was like to be a Leper, and Troy responded that it can't be any worse than being born "..Without any Eyes!!"

Hile Troy was the only one who cut the crap and confronted TC about his Unbelief and revealed it for what it was-- just a big shirking of responsibility. He forced Covenant to state clearly that he was "not responsible" because he was a powerless leper; revealing it for the excuse it was. I think he did TC a big favor. I mean, the Haruchai were thinking it, but HT said it.

TC had the unmitigated gall to say that HT would be better off falling from a burning building!! Even he had to hear how ridiculous that was. Troy wasn't always right or even always likeable, but he rocks.

A Big Wave for Hile Troy, forever exempt from berkdom.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Hile Troy - What a Berk!!! Reply with quote

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Hile Troy was the only one who cut the crap and confronted TC about his Unbelief and revealed it for what it was-- just a big shirking of responsibility. He forced Covenant to state clearly that he was "not responsible" because he was a powerless leper; revealing it for the excuse it was. I think he did TC a big favor. I mean, the Haruchai were thinking it, but HT said it.


for mine Hile Troy served to show that TC's Unbelief wasnt as silly a stance as it seemed; Hile Troy took on more responsibility than he could handle in the name of the Land, and it nearly led to the downfall of the Land's defender's - TC's decision to
Quote:
"withhold - to discount - to keep something for myself! Because I don't know why !"
is a personal matter which Troy had no right to judge him on - the Lords certainly didn't, they sought only to persuade TC to their cause without condemning his reticence.
I always thought that SRD introduced Hile Troy precisely to cast TC's inaction as in a better light; he was the antithesis of Covenant and the story goes on to show just how ill-prepared Troy was in face of the Land's plight.
Having said that, I thought that Troy and Covenant's exchanges were right up there with the best moments in all the books;
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Having said that, I thought that Troy and Covenant's exchanges were right up there with the best moments in all the books;


Agreed. However, I don't think that Covenant's response was "better" than Troy's. They are just very different, and while TC gets to end up being more of a hero in the end, you can't discount Troy's contribution.
Quote:
it nearly led to the downfall of the Land's defender's


That is the risk any leader takes, they have to chance that their own failure will cost other people as well. Covenant could have manned-up and taken that chance, but his spirit shrunk back from that cost every time it happened-- and it happened anyway.

The Lords put their trust in Troy just as in Covenant. Troy returned their trust with wholehearted commitment; Covenant allowed his personal conflicts to rule him. Thus every decision was born of crisis, rather than having made a choice beforehand about how he would respond, which was what Troy did. For that reason, although he had his own flaws, I admire Troy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I admire Troy as well. He has courage, loyalty and intelligence.

I think when it comes to Covenant though that it's important to the story that he literally does feel impotent, sick and wrong, and yet is hailed as a saviour in the Land. His situation is very different from that of Troy. That conversation in which Troy suggests that leprosy cannot be that much different from blindness emphasizes that.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deer of the dawn wrote:
Quote:
Having said that, I thought that Troy and Covenant's exchanges were right up there with the best moments in all the books;
of the Land's defender's


Quote:
That is the risk any leader takes, they have to chance that their own failure will cost other people as well. Covenant could have manned-up and taken that chance, but his spirit shrunk back from that cost every time it happened-- and it happened anyway.

The Lords put their trust in Troy just as in Covenant. Troy returned their trust with wholehearted commitment; Covenant allowed his personal conflicts to rule him. Thus every decision was born of crisis, rather than having made a choice beforehand about how he would respond, which was what Troy did. For that reason, although he had his own flaws, I admire Troy.


Oh, you rule. deer of the dawn. You rule like burning. Or fireworks or something. Well said!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just re-read Part Two of The Illearth War, I have the following thoughts on Hile Troy.

Firstly, he seems to have staked everything on a single plan. He appears to have no contingencies, no emergency strategies, no "Plan B" as it were. That is why Manethrall Rue's late arrival at Revelstone and the much-larger-than-anticipated size of Fleshharrower's army throw him so much.

Secondly, and this was the thing that really struck me, is that he's rather ignorant. When visiting Mithil Stonedown, he asks Mhoram what business is the High Lord of Triock. Now Troy may well be in love with Elena, but he hardly has any claim to her since he has never made his feelings known. Furthermore, it seems that despite being in love with her, he has never made the effort to find out where she comes from, otherwise he might have already known the answer to his question. I realise that Elena's parentage was kept from him, but he could still find out where she was born without learning who her family was.

Just a few thoughts. Very Happy
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He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But: I'm not talking about Hile Troy's plans, but his character. His moral center. That's why I lurff him and why he he's not a berk. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't agree though that every decision Troy made was born of a choice beforehand about how he would respond. Especially not when it comes to deciding to lead the Warward to Doriendor Corishev and then Cravenhaw. Necessary choices yes, but I believe born more out of crisis, as were many of Covenant's decisions.
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In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.

He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those eternal threads of the Watch... it never truly dies... like the Hierachy tribute thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Caution: White Gold Wielder Spoiler Alert Reply with quote

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Having said that, I thought that Troy and Covenant's exchanges were right up there with the best moments in all the books;

I have tremendous respect for both characters. Flawed book characters abound as do flawed "real" people. I enjoy the concept that there can be strength in imperfection. In WGW when TC dropped the ring into LF's hand I thought it was all over. (Okay so maybe I am easily fooled. I guess that is just one MORE of my flaws, LOL.)

deer of the dawn wrote:
That is the risk any leader takes, they have to chance that their own failure will cost other people as well.

Very well said, DotD! Another characteristic of leadership (IMHO) is commitment. It is certainly hard to argue with the sacrifices that both of these characters made. A favorite saying of mine on the subject of leadership is "You don't lead from the top. You lead from the front." In the corporate/business world, so many managers call themselves leaders. But how many of the people who work for them would call them that?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: OMG How TIW so sucks tactitically but works strtegically Reply with quote

This has been raised in more threads than I can possibly imagine but many miss some of the soldier's perspective. I wish to provide that.

- the gap that Quaan and the Bloodguard held them at for 8 friggen days ( 8 days, beyond belief) would not have prevented a flanking movement eventually through Kiril Threndor so no kill there.

- holding at Revelstone (at the time) would have lost them all of the rest of the land, something the Lords were not willing to do.

- Dooms retreat was not choice #1 because Troy and the rest figured they could match the army Foul sent, pros v.s. slaves. They had no concept on the size available to Foul.

- Dooms retreat could only work if they sucked them in, and they did suck them in. Would have worked too if not for magic (vortex of trepidation).

In many ways though, it was a fools gambit and even if they had won, it would be a Pyrihic victory in light of the back up army Foul sent; but still fun to play with the stats.


One thing I'll say though, there is no such thing as an overwhelming loss scenario unless you're prepared to admit it.. We've learned a lot since Khartoum, that's not going to happen.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved a comment over to here where it can be discussed w/o spoiler tags.

In the Group Read for TIL, Cord Hurn wrote:
I know it's been some time since anyone commented on this thread, but I want to comment that tonyz has identified the heart of Troy's problem: whether Troy was exaggerating his abilities as a strategist, or not, he could not have anticipated what he'd be up against. The Illearth Stone's ability to warp beings and apparently speed up their reproduction is beyond his ( or anyone else's comprehension.

This is one side of the coin. But there is another side of the coin to consider.

People like Troy will ALWAYS be beaten by Foul. They always believe that they can beat Foul at his game, but Foul always picks the game and sets the terms of the game in his favor. He knows your weaknesses, and you can never guess his strengths.

So you can look at it this way: Foul created a huge army because he knew it was the weak point in Troy's plan. He did this because this would drive Troy to over-extend himself to seek that slim chance at victory. And he wanted that because that would create the despair he needed to break him and thereby destroy them all.

If you accept that notion, then what follows is this: Had Troy been able to defeat a huge warped army with the resources at hand, the Foul would have known that, and would have done something different. And that different thing would have led to a similar result.

In the end, Troy actually beat Foul in the only way possible: he entered the trap, let it spring on him, and then found a way out of it. What was necessary in the end was not his tactics or his power of command, but the extravagance of his desperation. That's the thing that Foul always understimates in people from our world -- what we're capable of when it's down to the wire.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
People like Troy will ALWAYS be beaten by Foul. They always believe that they can beat Foul at his game, but Foul always picks the game and sets the terms of the game in his favor. He knows your weaknesses, and you can never guess his strengths.


Have you ever considered how Elena and Troy echo in the myth and legend of Oedipus?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Have you ever considered how Elena and Troy in echo the myth and legend of Oedipus?

No... please explain.

(Your post did make me notice the homonymic "Helen Of Troy" ... "'Elen o' Troy" ... "Elena Troy".)
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