Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

High Lord Elena
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2863 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
On the rim of the hollow, Hearthrall Borillar and the last of the Waynhim fought together against Mhoram's foes. Borillar used his flaming staff like a mace, and the Waynhim supported him with their own powers. Together they struggled impossibly to rescue the High Lord.

As cool as that might be to see Borillar at the head of a Waynhim wedge, or being infused with power from Waynhim blades, I think here "support" means only that they fought as a team, as normal warriors might support each other in a battle - holding a line, defending each other, coordinating strikes, etc.

Sadly, they didn't last long. But a moment nonetheless.


peter wrote:
(Carry this on someone please; to a Chrons lover tis a thing of beauty!)


Is this peter hinting at what made the Waynhim decide to attack Lord Foul -
Murder at the Waymeet? A whodunit if ever there was one! Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 3901

Thanks: 887
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts

Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
2412 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
On the rim of the hollow, Hearthrall Borillar and the last of the Waynhim fought together against Mhoram's foes. Borillar used his flaming staff like a mace, and the Waynhim supported him with their own powers. Together they struggled impossibly to rescue the High Lord.

As cool as that might be to see Borillar at the head of a Waynhim wedge, or being infused with power from Waynhim blades, I think here "support" means only that they fought as a team, as normal warriors might support each other in a battle - holding a line, defending each other, coordinating strikes, etc.

Sadly, they didn't last long. But a moment nonetheless.


peter wrote:
(Carry this on someone please; to a Chrons lover tis a thing of beauty!)


Is this peter hinting at what made the Waynhim decide to attack Lord Foul -
Murder at the Waymeet? A whodunit if ever there was one! Razz


That IS probably why, Rune!
That, plus the Waynhim are used to opposing anything supported by ur-viles, like Satansfist's army.
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2863 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
That IS probably why, Rune!
That, plus the Waynhim are used to opposing anything supported by ur-viles, like Satansfist's army.


To be sure, Lena had also been pinned to the earth with a murderous spike. A symbol no doubt as to why all the defenders made the decision to fight back against impossible odds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18416

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41388 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
(Carry this on someone please; to a Chrons lover tis a thing of beauty!)

Alas, it continues but briefly.

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
At the sight of them, Mhoram faltered; he could see immense monsters rising up to smite them, and their peril interrupted his concentration. But he recovered, surged toward them, driving his staff until it screamed in his hands.

Too many creatures were pressed between him and his rescuers; he could not reach them in time. While he fought slipping and plowing through the blood, he saw Borillar slain, saw the formation of the Waynhim broken, scattered. He almost fell himself under his inability to help them.

But possibilities beget possibilities.

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
But with their deaths they had purchased a thinning in the flood of attackers at that point. Through that thinning came Drinny of the Ranyhyn, bucking and charging to regain his rider.

His violent speed carried him down into the hollow. He crashed through creatures, leaped over them, hacked them out of his way. Before they could brace themselves to meet him, Drinny had reached the High Lord.

Mhoram sprang onto the Ranyhyn's back. From that vantage, he brought his power down on the heads of his assailants, while Drinny kicked and plunged back up the hillside. In moments, they crested the rim and broke into clearer ground beyond it.

And so Borillar and the Waynhim, while but brief, are nonetheless a critical piece of the final victory.

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
Together, they pursued samadhi Raver.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stave Bannorson
Servant of the Land


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 5

Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


64 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this is my take on High Lord Elena.

She was a magnetic character, but without doubt her story was one of great tragedy.

She was raised by a mother who had an insane love for a legend who raped her, and an adoptive father who loved them both dearly, but who caressed a deep hatred for the man who gave her life. And so her childhood must have been something difficult, being raised by two people possessed by obsessions relating to the same man. Even her grandparents didn't escape this.

But the same man gave her the gift of the Ranyhyn. Or rather, give this gift to her mother, from whom she inherited it. But her time with the Ranyhym was terrifying and majestic, frightening and glorious. They gave her things nobody else in the Land had received, or experienced. She learned bone molding, an art long forgotten. They communicated with her, and it was terrifying.

So, she grew up experiencing ranges of emotions, experiences and ambitions that would have been rare for anyone in the Land with her. She grew up in the thralls of greatness. And it followed her in life, becoming perhaps the youngest High Lord ever, training another "Thomas Covenant" figure (Hile Troy) to overcome the debilitating condition of blindness, and somehow giving hope to the Lords of the Land against an enemy they knew was impossible to defeat.

But despite such excellence in her life, she seems not to have shaken the horror of her beginnings, and the insanity of her mother. I especially like the first description we receive of her when Thomas meets her for the first time:

"[...] Bannor forestalled him. 'In this place,' the Bloodguard explained, 'the Lords set aside their burdens. Their staffs they leave here, and within these doors they rest, forgetting the cares of the Land. The High Lord honors you greatly in speaking to you here. Without staff or guard, she greets you as a friend in her sole private place.[..]'

When the High Lord opened her door, Covenant saw her clearly for the first time. She had put aside her blue Lord's robe, and instead wore a long, light brown Stonedownor shift with a white pattern woven into the shoulders. A white cord knotted at her waist emphasized her figure, and her thick hair, a rich brown with flashes of pale honey, fell to her shoulders, disguising the pattern there. She appeared younger than he had expected--he would have said that she was in her early thirties at most--but her face was strong, and the white skin of her forehead and throat knew much about sternness and discipline, though she smiled almost shyly when she saw Covenant.

But behind the experience of responsibility and commitment in her features was something strangely evocative. She seemed distantly familiar, as if in the background of her face she resembled someone he had once known. This impression was both heightened and denied by her eyes. They were gray like his own; but though they met him squarely they had an elsewhere cast, a disunion of focus, as if she were watching something else--as if some other, more essential eyes, the eyes of her mind, were looking somewhere else. Her gaze touched parts of him which had not responded for a long time."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Linna Heartlistener
"The lady's fate is writ in water."

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 3283

Thanks: 52
Thanked 61 Times in 61 Posts


4487 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Mithil Stonedown1 Caamora1 Lord Mhoram's Victory


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great analysis, Stave B.!

Stave Bannerson wrote:
She was a magnetic character, but without doubt her story was one of great tragedy...

...being raised by two people possessed by obsessions relating to the same man...
Absolutely.
Her charisma was so powerful... sometimes stronger than the wisdom she had to "back it up."

And the whole thing about the people who raised her... goodness. I often think about how strange it would be to grow up with a mother obsessed the way Lena was. It left Elena both with less of a mother, and a fascination with the same figure who held her mother's attention.

Stave Bannerson wrote:
So, she grew up experiencing ranges of emotions, experiences and ambitions that would have been rare for anyone in the Land with her...
Hmm. Now that you mention this, I'm not sure if I've thought about how this would isolate her very much.

And so much pressure that goes with such privileges.
And more pressure with the potential for greatness.

If one has such a great capacity to influence others as she did... great will be the pressure to not fail them.
And if one has such a great capacity to perceive and enjoy beauty as she did... great will be the fear of loss when it is threatened...

I think even the best things in her life - though great gifts - also contributed to the strain... the extremity of her situation.


Edit: edited to add more stuff in the beginning saying, "yeah, I was thinking the same thing!"
_________________
"...The sprinkler is a magnificent invention because it exposes raindrops to sunshine.
That does happen in nature, but it is rare.
...you two are dancing around in your iridescent little downpour whooping and stomping as sane people ought to do when they encounter a thing so miraculous as water."

"Gilead," by Marilynne Robinson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stave Bannorson
Servant of the Land


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 5

Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


64 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Great analysis, Stave B.!

Stave Bannerson wrote:
She was a magnetic character, but without doubt her story was one of great tragedy...

...being raised by two people possessed by obsessions relating to the same man...
Absolutely.
Her charisma was so powerful... sometimes stronger than the wisdom she had to "back it up."

And the whole thing about the people who raised her... goodness. I often think about how strange it would be to grow up with a mother obsessed the way Lena was. It left Elena both with less of a mother, and a fascination with the same figure who held her mother's attention.

Stave Bannerson wrote:
So, she grew up experiencing ranges of emotions, experiences and ambitions that would have been rare for anyone in the Land with her...
Hmm. Now that you mention this, I'm not sure if I've thought about how this would isolate her very much.

And so much pressure that goes with such privileges.
And more pressure with the potential for greatness.

If one has such a great capacity to influence others as she did... great will be the pressure to not fail them.
And if one has such a great capacity to perceive and enjoy beauty as she did... great will be the fear of loss when it is threatened...

I think even the best things in her life - though great gifts - also contributed to the strain... the extremity of her situation.


Edit: edited to add more stuff in the beginning saying, "yeah, I was thinking the same thing!"


Thanks Linna!

And you're right, there would have been immense pressure on her to succeed, but I'm not entirely certain she felt it as we might think.

That first description of Elena tells us so much about her. She wore her stonedownor robes with her family pattern, so she loves home. It's a place of fondness for her, so her childhood wasn't without love.

She has a strong face, with evidence of sternness and discipline, so she didn't rise to her position without merit or hardship. She worked for it.

Her features speak of the experience of responsibility and commitment, so she has borne her position well, and there doesn't appear to be any indication that this responsibility has been burdensome.

But there are two things of particular note in this first meeting: her shy smile, and the disunitive focus of her eyes.

Her shy smile, despite her position and authority, indicates a kind of girlish nervousness. It's because she's meeting her father for the first time. She's not severe with him, or angry, but shy and polite. She's not afraid of him, so Triock's anger didn't implant itself into her so much as her mother's insane love for him.

But it's her eyes that are most telling. In TPTP, we meet someone else with this kind of unfocused gaze, Lena, her mother. But, whereas Lena's inner gaze was always on Covenant, Elena's gaze is not. He's standing right before her, and she's still seeing something else.

I have always interpreted this to be ambition, a desire for power the likes of which were attained by the Old Lords. Remember, she's the daughter of one of the most powerful figures of legend and prophecy. It shouldn't be a surprise to see her seek to attain to the heights of power and greatness of such parentage. Perhaps this is the reason she falls in love with her own father. It isn't because she actually loves him, the person, but rather he is a man of unimaginable power and homage, and that is what really attracts her.

And that's what her mental imbalance is. It isn't being overly passionate, nor is it over-emotionality, these things would make her an ineffective leader. She's not an ineffective leader, and the Lords who elected her High Lord knew that. It's her ambition, her desire to gain knowledge and power. This may be driven by a desire to serve and protect the Land, or it may be a personal persuit, either way, I think this is what the Lords saw in her, and interpreted it to be their best chance for success, power against power.

I think one of her greatest frustrations was the inability to master High Lord Kevin's Lore, and his seven Wards. Strikingly, Covenant evokes the kind of power Elena desires without though, or intention, or desire, and is even the catalyst for opening some of Kevin's Wards by accident, a feat the Lords were unable to accomplish afters years of feverish study and attempt.

The Power of Command represented the greatest source of power that might ever be available to Elena, it's no surprise that she lost all reason when faced with the zenith of her life's desire. The madness we glimpse when she is faced with the POC is this unbalanced ambition tipped past its breaking point.

We know she was powerful, equipped with the Staff of Law, she fought with High Lord Kevin for longer than any other Lord could have in her position, against a Lord whose power none had even come close to since his Ritual of Desecration.

I really don't think she felt the keenness of the pressures that were put on her. Rather, I think she thrived in them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18416

Thanks: 11
Thanked 198 Times in 181 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
41388 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we first meet Elena, her fondness for Covenant and her apparent disregard for anything he had done put me on edge. It just didn't seem right to me. The reactions of the indubitable Hile Troy towards Covenant only highlighted this for me. She had to have hard feelings about something - no one is that pure.

She was either duplicitous and insane or overly adoring and insane -- what a great character!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Thanked by: Stave Bannorson
Horrim Carabal
Unlikely Ally

Male
Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 517

Thanks: 21
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts

Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
516 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Courser1 Earthblood1 Glimmermere


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did Dead Kevin retain all of living Kevin's lore?

Or was he stripped of all his power save what Foul had used to master him (the Illearth Stone)? I believe it is stated that when he returned from the Creche he was glowing green - or was that only his eyes...I can't remember.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Stave Bannorson
Servant of the Land


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 5

Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


64 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Did Dead Kevin retain all of living Kevin's lore?

Or was he stripped of all his power save what Foul had used to master him (the Illearth Stone)? I believe it is stated that when he returned from the Creche he was glowing green - or was that only his eyes...I can't remember.


Good point.

IIRC, I don't think he was powerless, but I do think his power was limited. Also, I feel fairly certain he was not back from the dead in the full sense, but merely as a specter, which is why his power was limited. And it was due to his limited power, he was more susceptible to the power of the illearth stone wielded by Foul. Let me see if I can find the relevant passage.

Ah, here it is:

"The specter of Kevin Landwaster stood outlined in pale light before Elena.

He dwarfed her--dwarfed the cave itself. Monumentally upright and desolate, he was visible through the stone rather than within the cave. He towered over Elena as if he were part of the very mountain rock. He had a mouth like a cut, eyes full of the effects of Desecration, and on his forehead was a bandage which seemed to cover some mortal wound. "Release me!" he groaned. 'I have done harm enough for one soul.'"

Then Elena commands him to go fight Foul, he does, and a while later he returns:

"Then the buried tomb of the air opened again; Kevin's presence resonated against Covenant's skin. But this time the specter brought with him a ghastly reek of rotten flesh and attar, and in the background of his presence was the deep rumble of rock being crushed. When Covenant raised his head from the bucking floor, he saw Kevin within the stone--furiously poised, fists cocked. Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.

'Fool!' he cried in a paroxysm of anguish. 'Damned betrayer! You have broken the Law of Death to summon me--you have unleashed measureless opportunities for evil upon the Earth--and the Despiser mastered me as easily as if I were a child! The Illearth Stone consumes me. Fight, fool! I am Commanded to destroy you!'"

And from there, their battle ensues. It's unclear from the text why Kevin was overcome by Foul so easily, whether because he was a ghost, or because he lacked the Staff of Law, or because he had no power, or because Foul had the Illearth Stone, or some combination of these. It's also unclear where Kevin gained his power to fight Elena, whether it is his own power, or power given to him through the Illearth Stone, or maybe both.

It is clear, though, that when he fought Elena, Kevin was wasn't weak. He killed Morin, Elena's Bloodguard, with one attack. That's no easy feat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DrPaul
Giantfriend


Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 432

Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts


2351 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Did Dead Kevin retain all of living Kevin's lore?

Or was he stripped of all his power save what Foul had used to master him (the Illearth Stone)? I believe it is stated that when he returned from the Creche he was glowing green - or was that only his eyes...I can't remember.


I would say that Dead Kevin would have remembered all of living Kevin's knowledge of the Seven Wards. The two questions then are:

(a) whether Dead Kevin was able to exercise all of the lore or whether there were some elements of the lore that only living persons could exercise;

(b) whether being mastered by Lord Foul limited (or further limited) his ability to use the lore (for example, because lore based on Earthpower was repugnant to a being ruled by Despite).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53532

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
16841 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Despite repugnant to Earthpower? Drool wielded the Staff afterall...it was poorly, but was that due to Despite? Or his ignorance?

Both destruction and creation are natural forces...is Earthpower aspected? Or is it morally neutral?

(Stave B, welcome...back I guess? Very Happy )

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2863 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stave Bannorson wrote:
"Then the buried tomb of the air opened again; Kevin's presence resonated against Covenant's skin. But this time the specter brought with him a ghastly reek of rotten flesh and attar, and in the background of his presence was the deep rumble of rock being crushed. When Covenant raised his head from the bucking floor, he saw Kevin within the stone--furiously poised, fists cocked. Hot green filled the orbs of his eyes, sent rank steam curling up his forehead; and he dripped with emerald light as if he had just struggled out of a quagmire.


... a ghastly reek of rotten flesh and attar! Was what Covenant sensed emanating from Elena herself on their entry into the cave of the Earthblood.
Attar is from Kiril Threndor.

... the deep rumble of rock being crushed! We know this to be Lord Foul's laughter.
But a deep rumbling like rock being crushed is also the sound of thunder ... after a flash of lightning.

The Colossus of the Fall springs to mind.

Quagmire?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
Page 11 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch