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Could the Defeat of Foul in the Second Chrons ....

 
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peter
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Could the Defeat of Foul in the Second Chrons .... Reply with quote

..... have been achieved without the sojurn to the One Tree. Would Findail and Vain and the metal bands have been enough? What was Seadreamer's Earthsight, - and why was it necessary that he be struck dumb in order to achieve it? Was it just that 'there is a thing called the Sunbane messing with The World, and if some guys attempting to fight it go lopping branches off of The One Tree, all hell's going to break loose 'coz TWOTWE is gonna wake up'? If that's what it was, then why was not more time invested into say, teaching him to 'write' or play charades or whatever? Why does Covenant consistantly refuse 'to spill the beans' on what his ideas of 'what we should do' are? Has he never heard of 'concensus or collective decision making; why all the secrecy?

At the end of my re-read of TOT these and other equally silly questions keep popping up.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said it yourself - Findail completed the trio of components needed by the quest. Even the title of the book "The One Tree", suggests all three parts to be one and the same.

Elemesnedene was the One Tree, it's location gifted to Thomas Covenant by Caer Caveral. But the Isle and Findail's Appointment were deemed necessesary by the fearie-folk as payment for services rendered in agreement with the terms of their weird.

The role of Ken-austen Ardenol is vital to this. He was set to guard the entrance to the Tree. Why? When [Ken (...) Ardenol] in translation - Kevin's Garden, held in trust by the Elohim until such a time when they shall return with the Wyrd. Back to a time as before the Desolation, when the Land was pristine and full of health. Linden's job.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Could the Defeat of Foul in the Second Chrons .... Reply with quote

peter wrote:
..... have been achieved without the sojurn to the One Tree. Would Findail and Vain and the metal bands have been enough?


I've always wanted to think so, peter! But apparently in one of his Gradual Interviews on the subject, Stephen R. Donaldson states it was necessary for the Tree's defenses to turn one of Vain's arms to wood to enable him to become the next Staff of Law.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
What was Seadreamer's Earthsight, - and why was it necessary that he be struck dumb in order to achieve it? Was it just that 'there is a thing called the Sunbane messing with The World, and if some guys attempting to fight it go lopping branches off of The One Tree, all hell's going to break loose 'coz TWOTWE is gonna wake up'? If that's what it was, then why was not more time invested into say, teaching him to 'write' or play charades or whatever?


I think it was because then Seadreamer would be imparting "unearned knowledge" to the company, and this would somehow result in either the breaking of the Arch or the concentrated effort of Foul to have Vain destroyed (he seemed to ignore Vain for the most part, other than his servants in the Clave once imprisoning Vain).
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I thought the spark turning Vains arm to wood was perhaps an essential trigger - I wonder if more had reached him, the entire transformation (had he nabbed a hold of findail) could have been done there and then? What started the sparks - was it the attempt by Seadreamer to break off the bough (which would make the visit to the isle, and by extension the setting up of the Guardianship, and the prohibition against lopping off branches set up after the first such occurence, also essential)?
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see Seadreamer's affliction as a cosmic balance thing. He knew the future, therefore he was rendered unable to change it. Tragic, yes, but also diminishing the risk to the Earth. Notably his final words were uttered when events could no longer be prevented.

When Vain's arm was transformed, it was not yet possible to make the new Staff because Linden was not the ringweilder. It took percipience and wild magic to complete. When conditions were finally ready, Vain wasn't shy about saying so.

Why was Covenant keeping his plans to himself? Remember, he defeated Foul the first time by taking it all on himself. This is one of the things Foul turns against him for his second attempt, making his strength into a weakness. It takes a while for Covenant to learn to share his burdens with his friends, and to let them take risks, too.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the manner in which Seadreamer actually achieved his earthsight? A boating accident cuts him across the brow and bridge of his nose IIRC. He comes to having learned his gift, but simultaneously unable to speak anymore. This is odd isn't it? Is the 'gift' in truth a curse? This is not normally how Earth power works, although without going into detail, we do see a similar affliction levied as a price for Earthsight at a later point.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the cause of Seadreamer's Earth-sight need to be explained? It's tragic, ironic serendipity. The Giants view it as "a gift", treasured, protected, and obeyed. But it's also a mystery: "None can say why it chooses one Giant rather than another."

It's the hand of fate.

The Elohim say, "His muteness arises from this Earth-Sight as day arises from the sun." They are intertwined and inseparable. As I have suggested, I believe this is a matter of cosmic balance - he was given a vision of the future, but that required that he be prevented from preventing that future. And so the Elohim could not relieve him of his muteness. "To grant the gift you ask, we must perforce blind the eyes of his vision."

But the Elohim and the Giants agree that the Earth-sight is to be respected, and trusted. They believe that the Earth-sight arises when the Earth is in need. This argues that they believe it's nature is ultimately good, and for the good, albeit at a heavy price to the one who bears it. So while they do not name a cause, they surely think it's a benevolent agent, with the Earth's best interest as motivation.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is Linden talking with Sunder in Ch 15 of WGW, following his resurrection after breaking the Law of Life.
Quote:

"The last time Covenant was here, Caer-Caveral gave him the location of the One Tree." Each word surprised her like a hint of revelation. "But he hid it so Covenant couldn't reach it himself. That's why he had to expose himself to the Elohim, let them work their plots-" The bare memory brought a tremor of anger into her voice. "We should never have had to go there in the first place. Why did Caer-Caveral give him that gift-and then make it such a secret?"

Sunder looked at her. He was no longer smiling. A weird intensity filled his gaze like a swirl of sparks. Abruptly, he said, "Are you not now companioned by the Appointed of the Elohim? How otherwise could that end have been achieved?"
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:
Here is Linden talking with Sunder in Ch 15 of WGW, following his resurrection after breaking the Law of Life.
Quote:

"The last time Covenant was here, Caer-Caveral gave him the location of the One Tree." Each word surprised her like a hint of revelation. "But he hid it so Covenant couldn't reach it himself. That's why he had to expose himself to the Elohim, let them work their plots-" The bare memory brought a tremor of anger into her voice. "We should never have had to go there in the first place. Why did Caer-Caveral give him that gift-and then make it such a secret?"

Sunder looked at her. He was no longer smiling. A weird intensity filled his gaze like a swirl of sparks. Abruptly, he said, "Are you not now companioned by the Appointed of the Elohim? How otherwise could that end have been achieved?"



I like being reminded of this! While some burden-sharing among Covenant and his friends is apparently necessary to provide for the Earth's protection, some secretiveness among the Earth's allies also seems necessary in order to thwart the Despiser's purposes.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Sunder had wanted to, he could also have pointed out that the hiding of the knowledge of the One Tree's location led indirectly to several other important consequences. For example, the sojourn in Brathairealm that culminated in Covenant's mastery of Nom, which then made possible the company's victory at Revelstone.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was interesting that Findail was so sure that if he could only talk TC out of the ring, that somehow everything would work out anyway.

But there was inconsistency in that as well. On one hand he said that he wanted either the ring for himself, or for Linden to take the ring. Yet I dont see how that would have helped. Findail told TC,
Quote:

"You consider yourself a figure of power but in the scale of worlds you are not. Had the despisers lust for the illearth stone not betrayed him you would not have stood against him so much as once."


So if Linden had the ring, what good would that have done without TC and how could that have saved Findail from his fate that he so desperately wanted to avoid.
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