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What If Hile Troy Had been The Lead?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quote from the GI that's very apposite to this discussion:

Quote:
Frankly, I conceived of Hile Troy as an antidote to WhyDoesn'tCovenantGetOffHisButtAndDoSomething-itis. I was acutely aware that many of my readers, especially readers with a background in traditional sword-and-sorcery, would be very impatient with Covenant's ambivalence. I wanted a chance to discuss the implications (by which I mean the dangers) of *not* being ambivalent; and I created Troy as an exemplar of everything Covenant is not. You see the results. The only reason Troy didn't effectively destroy all of the Land's defenses is that Mhoram created an opportunity for him to sacrifice himself instead. Whatever the "answer to evil" may be, it cannot involve Hile Troy's unwillingness to question his own assumptions. Just try to imagine what would have happened to the Land if Troy were the ring-wielder.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost. Hile Troy lacked the one item that was needed. White gold. He wouldn't have a reason to have it. He wasn't married and if he was given a ring would he have chosen a gold that he couldn't see?
He could have had a pendant he could wear but again unless by happenstance, would he have chosen a white gold one over a yellow one?
Or would silver been more to his liking.

HT was flawed. His view from Kevin watch showed he was prone to despairing. Foul would have "jerked his chain" like Bayou men trolling for gators.

It had to be TC.. he was condition not to trust anything because of his disease. TC's health went from the average human to the gutter. HT's blindness was from birth and he adapted it to a working advantage.
HT was on top of his world were TC was in the pit. TC was in bed with despair. He was coping with it 24 -7 . That is what gave him the advantage.

So Troy would have sunk like a rock if he had the lead. He was slated for his position.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
First and foremost. Hile Troy lacked the one item that was needed. White gold. He wouldn't have a reason to have it.

If Hile had a lucky rabbit's foot key fob, then rabbit fur could have been the foundation of the Arch of Time. It's not important what the magic talisman is, what's important is what it symbolizes.

Ur Dead wrote:
HT's blindness was from birth and he adapted it to a working advantage.
HT was on top of his world were TC was in the pit. TC was in bed with despair. He was coping with it 24 -7 . That is what gave him the advantage.

What matters, I think, is a sense that one's life is futile.

Quote:
Moistening his lips with his tongue, Covenant responded, "No, old man. This is normal - human beings are like this. Futile." As if he were quoting a law of leprosy, he said to himself, Futility is the defining characteristic of life. "That's what life is like. I just have less bric-a-brac cluttering up the facts than most people."

Certainly being valued by the Department of Defense for one's unique skills goes a long way toward not feeling futile. However, if it's not fulfilling, maybe perhaps it wouldn't.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:
Here's a quote from the GI that's very apposite to this discussion:

Quote:
Frankly, I conceived of Hile Troy as an antidote to WhyDoesn'tCovenantGetOffHisButtAndDoSomething-itis. I was acutely aware that many of my readers, especially readers with a background in traditional sword-and-sorcery, would be very impatient with Covenant's ambivalence. I wanted a chance to discuss the implications (by which I mean the dangers) of *not* being ambivalent; and I created Troy as an exemplar of everything Covenant is not. You see the results. The only reason Troy didn't effectively destroy all of the Land's defenses is that Mhoram created an opportunity for him to sacrifice himself instead. Whatever the "answer to evil" may be, it cannot involve Hile Troy's unwillingness to question his own assumptions. Just try to imagine what would have happened to the Land if Troy were the ring-wielder.


A thought on what might have been had Troy taken ownership of the ring, was perhaps the opportunity to pull Loric's krill free of the table. It would then be easy to imagine any number of scenarios far more exiciting than the original story of a poorly equiped army.

This is an idea based on Troy, not only wearing sunglasses to protect the feelings of others, but to show [us] that he was always heading towards Summertime - as opposed to Elena and the Law moving through the Autumn.

This isn't necessarily an absurd assumption, when considering T.H.White's Sword in the Stone and the unusual relationship between Merlin and Wart - how they both moved through time in mirrored fashion - as Wart grew older moving into the future, so Merlin grew older moving into the past.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow I feel that if Troy were the ring-wielder, the Land would either quickly move toward salvation or damnation, because Troy's passions flared up more quickly than Covenant's (Covenant's leprosy taught him to keep his dreams and passions under greater control than would otherwise be the case).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
Somehow I feel that if Troy were the ring-wielder, the Land would either quickly move toward salvation or damnation, because Troy's passions flared up more quickly than Covenant's (Covenant's leprosy taught him to keep his dreams and passions under greater control than would otherwise be the case).


The Council of Lords saw fit to withhold vital information from both Troy and Covenant. So much so in fact it makes me wonder just how much has actually been hidden.
For the Haruchai Bloodguard, the withholding of knowledge was second nature to them.
It should be no surprise both Troy and Covenant were so volitile.

Having said that, if Troy had the Ring then why not give him the Staff of Law as well. Wouldn't that be The Power of Command properly that Amok had spoken about.
With both the ring and the staff, Troy could then march (or may not) on Mt.Thunder, and summon the Fire Lions.

How would Lord Foul stop him?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I'm glad you changed your response, Rune. Wink)

Interesting idea. But the first Staff of Law was useless to anyone without the lore to use it. Drool could only master it because Foul helped him with it. Also,
Spoiler:
It wasn't really spelled out in the first Chronicles, but the ring and the Staff are inimical to each other.

And then there's the issue of Troy being "bloody dangerous", as mentioned upthread. Should we really give him more power? No, I think that this would have been a bad idea. Foul eats those guys for breakfast. (Hmm... "I am Breakfastbane"?)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting that the ring and the staff were instrumental in summoning the Fire Lions at Mt.Thunder, and yet the ring destroyed the staff at the Colossus of the Fall. What had changed?

(wayfriend, if there's a simple explanation to this puzzle I'm sure you're the one who can find it.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good question, Rune!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fire lions seem to respond to "dire need".

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
Then Berek stood upon the rock, and beheld his enemies close upon him. He took the pledge, sealing it with the blood of his riven hand. The Earth replied with thunder; from the heights of the mountain came great stone Fire-Lions, devouring everything in their path. The King and all his host were laid waste, and Berek alone stood above the rampage on his boulder like a tall ship in the sea.

First, notice there was no Staff. He hadn't made it yet. What Berek had was great despair, and as we know, strong passion is the key to great power. In his despair, he made a "pledge" which looks like nothing less than the Vow of the Bloodguard. We know that such passionate vows can invoke Earthpower. And so the fire-lions were summoned.

All that seems necessary is the dire need, and the power to call loud enough on the Earthpower frequency for them to hear you. Doesn't matter if it's a pledge, a staff, or a ring.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hile Troy was an alien. No regular human could possibly know what his thoughts and agendas were' other than he was into crazy chicks.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm. Based on that evidence, I might also be an alien.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
The fire lions seem to respond to "dire need".

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
Then Berek stood upon the rock, and beheld his enemies close upon him. He took the pledge, sealing it with *the blood of his riven hand. The Earth replied with thunder; from the heights of the mountain came great stone Fire-Lions, devouring everything in their path. The King and all his host were laid waste, and Berek alone stood above the rampage on his boulder like a tall ship in the sea.



You have to take into account that the Lorewardens had had great difficulty translating the Wards. So my guess is that translating the First Ward the Lorewardens erroneously misread, "standing on the shoulders of giants". More evidence that the (rampant) Fire Lions are the Seareach Giants.

*(the blood of rivenrock)?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
The fire lions seem to respond to "dire need".

In Lord Foul's Bane was wrote:
Then Berek stood upon the rock, and beheld his enemies close upon him. He took the pledge, sealing it with *the blood of his riven hand. The Earth replied with thunder; from the heights of the mountain came great stone Fire-Lions, devouring everything in their path. The King and all his host were laid waste, and Berek alone stood above the rampage on his boulder like a tall ship in the sea.



You have to take into account that the Lorewardens had had great difficulty translating the Wards. So my guess is that translating the First Ward the Lorewardens erroneously misread, "standing on the shoulders of giants". More evidence that the (rampant) Fire Lions are the Seareach Giants.

*(the blood of rivenrock)?



I can't see how the Fire-Lions could possibly be the Seareach Giants, no matter how hard I try to stretch my imagination. I could see the Fire-Lions as a super-powerful form of the Wraiths without much problem, though.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:
Here's a quote from the GI that's very apposite to this discussion:

Quote:
Frankly, I conceived of Hile Troy as an antidote to WhyDoesn'tCovenantGetOffHisButtAndDoSomething-itis. I was acutely aware that many of my readers, especially readers with a background in traditional sword-and-sorcery, would be very impatient with Covenant's ambivalence. I wanted a chance to discuss the implications (by which I mean the dangers) of *not* being ambivalent; and I created Troy as an exemplar of everything Covenant is not. You see the results. The only reason Troy didn't effectively destroy all of the Land's defenses is that Mhoram created an opportunity for him to sacrifice himself instead. Whatever the "answer to evil" may be, it cannot involve Hile Troy's unwillingness to question his own assumptions. Just try to imagine what would have happened to the Land if Troy were the ring-wielder.



The thing is that once Foul had the IllEarth Stone the Land effectively already had NO defense against Foul. Foul had unlimited cannon fodder to throw at the Land's defenders even before he had the power to call forth the Ancient Dead to sick against the Lords. He had three Giant-Ravers. Nothing the Lords did hindered Foul's plans in anyway.

If he had wanted to, Foul could have walked up to Revelstone and blasted it-- and the Lords-- to pieces. Foul wanted the people of the Land to give into despair ... that was far more important to him than just conquering or destroying them.


(The only thing that any of the Land's native defenders did that made a difference in the final right was that Mhoram's killing of the Giant-Raver gave a moment's pause to Undead Elena's confrontation with Covenant.)
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