Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 13 and 14
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> 1st Chronicles
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lord Mhoram
Boston Brahmin

Male
Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts: 9512

Thanks: 2
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

Location: Boston USA
2292 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 Revelstone


PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said somewhere else, I dont think the people of this world are real enough. There need to be some doubts.
_________________
"All my life I have sneered at the natural rights of man." - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
pitchwife
Elohim

Female
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 130

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Location: Israel
8 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joining the discussion a little late, very interesting points everybody!

Two things I wanted to add:
The meeting of the council of Lords is our first encounter with the political regime in the Land. The High Lord is nominated by the council of Lords and is himself one of it's members. The Lords themselves are graduates of the Loresraat, the Land's educational institute. Any inhabitant of the Land may join the Loresraat, and once they have mastered both sword and staff, they automatically become a Lord. Doesn't this remind you of Aristotle's utopia: "the rule of the wise"?
The sword and the staff are considered the knowledge one needs in order to join the circle of rulers. Both have to do with power, it's physical and spiritual manifestations. But the Lords do not appear as power hungry, to the contrary, they are modest and humble, very unlike the political figures we are used to in our earth. The Lords have a sense of responsibility for the whole population of the land, all its people, all its races, even the animals and the plants, and as Sky noted, the relationship with the environment is of the Lord's main concern. The Lords are extremely virtuous, especially when contrasted with our own democratically elected leaders, who forward interests of thier allies and supporters at the expense of other parts of society.

Vespers is our first meeting with 'organized' worship in the Land, but what is the object of worship? Is it the Land itself, or Earthpower? And how do the people of the Land regard earthpower, do they view it as a god: omnipotent and supernatural; or as science: a logical set of rules that must be discovered and learned?

-pitch
_________________
We are who we are - and what we are not, we will never become
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest










0 White Gold Dollars

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought of the Lords as sort of healers but for the Land and everything in it, rather than just humans. They even care about the grass growing well. Very Happy
Back to top
danlo
Lord of Neverness


Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 20840

Thanks: 43
Thanked 55 Times in 55 Posts

Location: Albuquerque NM
2564 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 2005 Watcher of the Year1 Sandgorgon1 Skyweir


PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:39 pm    Post subject: Bits and pieces... Reply with quote

The Danger of Group Reads with material this good:I bet there r plenty of other Servants of the Land out there xperiencing the same problem I am. If I try 2 catch up, all of a sudden I find myself 6 chapters ahead of where I'm supposed 2 b. And that makes it tuff 2 keep one's thoughts and posts focused on the given chapters. So I have had 2 back up and reread--and will vehemently try 2 stick 2 the chapters at hand.

Nerdanel made a great into and I love the Duchess' reference 2 ocher via the Beggar 2 the Bloodguard. Now this kinda stuff are the great benefits of a group read--as long as one can keep the chapters at hand. Yes as far as meeting a large and varied group of Land dwellers, being blown away by Revelstone and learning some very important info of the Land and the dangers it faces, these r perhaps the MOST pivotal chapters in the book.

In the previous chapter Covenant talks 2 Foamy of culture shock. As if he hasn't xperienced enuf of it already! In these chapters there is so much info, newness, grandure, emotion mixed with humility that I really don't kno how TC can take it all in w/o going mad! Small wonder he storms back 2 his tower rooms, rips downs the tapestry, throws it off the balcony and shouts "I'm not Berek!" Pushed around by Bannor, mystified by Mhoram, being led back and forth through this tunnel, that hall not even knowing which way is up! Vertigo everywhere! Whew! Then 2 find urself in a huge crystal bowl-like Close--it's like the curtian rising on some play! The lights go down, the etheral Lords appear and u can hear them speaking as if they r right next 2 u, tho u r miles above them. Mindmelding Lords, telepathic Bloodguard. Immortal, sleepless Bloodguard! Yow! Way 2 much!

Yet behind the grand veneer of the Lords Covenant finds frail and humble servants of the Land, somewhat stooped in failure of not mastering what little lore of the Old lords they kno. How can they fight Foul alone? Y has TC brought them this message when any1 can do it? What is so important about the messenger? Can the messenger help them? "Here's the bloody ring!", "I can't use it", I don't know how, "I'm a leper!" "That's why Foul choose me, (I'm impotent)". "You believe this all is a dream?" Lord Osendrea admonishes him. And if this isn't a dream--**the readers think back 2 the rape**--perhaps he isn't impotent, he just doesn't kno it...

back with more soon...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
MsMary
The Cheat

FemaleRanyhyn
Joined: 06 Mar 2002
Posts: 6948

Thanks: 12
Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts


34057 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Andelain1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Danger of Group Reads with material this good:I bet there r plenty of other Servants of the Land out there xperiencing the same problem I am. If I try 2 catch up, all of a sudden I find myself 6 chapters ahead of where I'm supposed 2 b. And that makes it tuff 2 keep one's thoughts and posts focused on the given chapters. So I have had 2 back up and reread--and will vehemently try 2 stick 2 the chapters at hand.


I know what you mean, danlo. I am sort of just reading, and have been unable to keep up with posting, so when I look at the individual 2 chapter threads, it's hard to keep straight what I am supposed to be commenting on precisely, without overlapping into upcoming chapters.

I am enjoying reading everyone else's comments, though. Smile

~MsMary~
_________________
The Cheat is GROUNDED! We had that lightswitch installed for you so you could turn the lights on and off, not so you could throw lightswitch raves!
***************************************
- I'm always all right.
- Is all right special Time Lord code for really not all right at all?

- You're all irresponsible fools!
- The Doctor: But we're very experienced irresponsible fools.






__________________________

THOOLAH member since 2005

EZBoard Survivor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Eighth Ward
Servant of the Land


Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 22

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


151 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: irony Reply with quote

I know it has been years since anyone commented here, and I am surprised - given all the discussion about the rape in previous dissections - that no one comments on what is clearly one of the most ironic moments in the whole story.

In Vespers when Mhoram visits TC for the first time and they are discussing the desecration of the moon, the Lord asks TC if his message "accounts for the befouling of the moon"? TC replies:

Quote:
"He's showing off - thats all. Just showing us what he can do." Deep in his throat, he cried, Hellfire! Foul! The Wraiths were helpless. What do you do for an encore, rape children?


Spoiler:
While we all know that TC owns up to and pays the price many times over for this heinous act,
does anyone feel that maybe, just maybe, TC is in denial about the abuse of Lena at this point? Do you hear Foul laughing, and thinking "No Unbeliever, I leave such desecrations in your capable hands."

Spoiler:
Is this an early indication of the revelations set forth later in the Chrons and debated at length in other threads, that TC and Foul are essentially one?

_________________
I used to be The Seventh Ward - Those who knew me had no need of my name.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18903

Thanks: 11
Thanked 220 Times in 203 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
43338 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the watch, Eight.

I certainly think that Covenant's comment to Mhoram was his repressed memory leaking out. (He doesn't really "remember" what he did until he reaches the Plains of Ra: He had done that to Lena - done that? Lena!)

And yes, it certainly bears out the idea that SRD wishes to instill in the reader during LFB, that Covenant might be no better than Lord Foul.
_________________
FEAR: Yet hearken well, aspirant bold!
I, tho' a stranger, but whilom friend,
Hold the odds against thee now.
Straightly be adjured, witling --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
The Eighth Ward
Servant of the Land


Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 22

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Times in 1 Posts


151 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Wayfriend. I have been here before, as The Seventh Ward. I was making changes to my profile a while back...must have been half asleep because when I was done I could no longer log in under that moniker and all the old posts turned into "Guest" posts.

At this point in the story he does not actually say this to Mhoram - he was thinking it in his mind. I agree that it will take TC time to come to grips with that act. And when he does begin to come to grips with it (IMHO and in spite of his fervent denials) his path to accepting that the Land as real, and important to him, begins.
_________________
I used to be The Seventh Ward - Those who knew me had no need of my name.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shuram Gudatetris
Luxurator of In-Flux Crust Eruptions

Male
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 674

Thanks: 22
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts

Location: Cameron, Missouri
12832 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lego1 Translation1 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurred to me while reading Chapter Fourteen, that SRD was light-years ahead of his time....

Chapter 14: The Council of Lords

Lord Osondrea asked, "How many ships will you need?"

With a glance at Biriniar's upright dignity, Foamfollower contained his humor, and replied simply, "Seven. Perhaps five."

"Can this be done?" Osondrea asked Birinair again, distinctly but without irritation.

The Hearthrall pulled a small tablet and stylus from his robe and began to calculate, muttering to himself.


[/u]
_________________
Covenant is Linden Frankenstein's monster.

I maxed-out Tetris!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Phoogle Map
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2887 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two of my favourite passages from Lord Foul's Bane are from Chapters 13 and 14.

Quote:
Vespers

Covenant took one look at the yawning gulf of the courtyard and backed away. 'No,' he muttered, 'forget it. I'll just stay here if you don't mind.'
Lord Mhoram regarded him curiously for a moment, but did not challenge his reaction. 'Very well,' he said simply. 'We will go another way.'


Quote:
The Council of Lords

At Bannor's commanding back, he moved out of the tower, across the courtyard, then inward and down through the ravelled and curiously wrought passages of Revelstone.


I've often wondered at the curiousness and the implications of where these two passages may lead, if one happened to cross reference the other. There seems to be no place to go other than, 'inward' and 'down', and to the Council of Lords as the story dictates. Unless, a third passage were to be found ...

Quote:
from chapter 2 - 'You Cannot Hope'

Without another word, he [the old begger man] turned and moved away. He leaned on his staff like and exhausted prophet, worn out with uttering visions. His staff rang curiously on the sidewalk, as if the wood were harder than cement. [...] The signal changed slowly, but at last it was green his [Covenant] way. He stepped out on to the crosswalk.


The signal changing slowly could mean that this curiously wrought passage turns inward all the way to volume three, and The Power That Preserves - as (red moon, green moon, traffic light for stop, traffic light for go). So if anyone knows where in volume three this passage happens to reappear, then please let me know!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SleeplessOne
One of the Infrequent


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 524

Thanks: 27
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

Location: Melbourne, Australia
2060 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Covenant's appalled response to Bannor's revelations in 'The Council of the Lords' is a wonderful moment in this book.

Covenant can't get his head around the Bloodguard Vow and it's implications.

Sacrificing home, family and intimacy in exchange for the pure service of their Vow, Covenant views the Bloodguard's choice as one of uncompromising extremity that verges on the inhuman.

As is often the case with Covenant, particularly in the early books, he is capable of great insight into others without necessarily turning those same insights inwards; if he were capable of doing so in this chapter he might come to recognise the essential futility of his own 'vow' to the 'laws' of his leprosy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thanked by: Cord Hurn
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2887 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeplessOne, if your post is in answer or in continuation on themes proposed in my post then I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what it is you are saying. You would need to expand on your meaning.
Then again, I might suppose that you have absolutely no idea what it is that I was saying. And so I will in turn expand on my meaning some more.

It seems to me at least the passages mentioned show the very essence of fantasy storytelling. SRD at his best. Cunning and tricky. Making us believe and accept the obvious, when really SRD is showing us like Lord Mhoram another way. Another way inward.

I might suppose when Lord Mhoram regards Covenant with curiosity it's because, if I remember rightly, he already knows that Covenant had been to Soaring Woodhelvenin and the staff he carried was a Hirebrand staff, given to him by Baradakas. Why then would Covenant have a fear of heights? This may be what's odd to him.
Then when Covenant and Bannor leave to go to the Council of Lords - as I tried to point out that Covenant walks boldly across the crosswalk - what had changed? What had happened to vanquish his vertigo?
But most importantly, above all else, why are those passages so cunningly hidden in cryptic prose???

I thought this would be fun to explore.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SleeplessOne
One of the Infrequent


Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 524

Thanks: 27
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

Location: Melbourne, Australia
2060 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:42 am    Post subject: Lord Foul's Bane Chapters 13 and 14 Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
SleeplessOne, if your post is in answer or in continuation on themes proposed in my post then I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea what it is you are saying. You would need to expand on your meaning.
Then again, I might suppose that you have absolutely no idea what it is that I was saying. And so I will in turn expand on my meaning some more.

It seems to me at least the passages mentioned show the very essence of fantasy storytelling. SRD at his best. Cunning and tricky. Making us believe and accept the obvious, when really SRD is showing us like Lord Mhoram another way. Another way inward.

I might suppose when Lord Mhoram regards Covenant with curiosity it's because, if I remember rightly, he already knows that Covenant had been to Soaring Woodhelvenin and the staff he carried was a Hirebrand staff, given to him by Baradakas. Why then would Covenant have a fear of heights? This may be what's odd to him.
Then when Covenant and Bannor leave to go to the Council of Lords - as I tried to point out that Covenant walks boldly across the crosswalk - what had changed? What had happened to vanquish his vertigo?
But most importantly, above all else, why are those passages so cunningly hidden in cryptic prose???

I thought this would be fun to explore.


Hi Rune - no, I wasn't responding to your post, I would have quoted if so - but perhaps I should have quoted the section of the book that I was talking about (although it seemed relatively clear to me at the time of writing - I had actually been reading that chapter on the day it was bumped, so it was fresh in my mind, if not in the mind of others ..)

I was ruminating upon the conversation Covenant has with Bannor in 'The Council of the Lords' regarding Bannor's vow; Covenant questions Bannor rigorously about his extreme commitment and seems appalled at Bannor's sacrifices; however to me Bannor's commitment to his Vow has definite echoes of Covenant's own adherence to the laws that govern his management of his leprosy ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JIkj fjds j
j sfoO fp

Male
Joined: 22 Dec 2014
Posts: 1058

Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts

Location: 24i v o ot
2887 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
I was ruminating upon the conversation Covenant has with Bannor in 'The Council of the Lords' regarding Bannor's vow; Covenant questions Bannor rigorously about his extreme commitment and seems appalled at Bannor's sacrifices; however to me Bannor's commitment to his Vow has definite echoes of Covenant's own adherence to the laws that govern his management of his leprosy ...


The relationship between Covenant and Bannor is always fascinating, and I suspect some of the answers to questions I've been asking are rooted in that relationship.

Theorising about Covenant's bold and uncharacteristic walk across the crosswalk has certain implications to what occurs later in the story at Warrenbridge. When everything in Covenant's vision began to dissolve and become insubstantial, Bannor and the Bloodgaurd became more solid and real. This also echoes the sound made by the old begger man's staff as it rang on the sidewalk - harder than cement!

Bridging gaps not only from one side to another, A to B, but also making connections between what is believable and what is not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 5090

Thanks: 988
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts

Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
4933 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeplessOne wrote:
Covenant's appalled response to Bannor's revelations in 'The Council of the Lords' is a wonderful moment in this book.

Covenant can't get his head around the Bloodguard Vow and it's implications.

Sacrificing home, family and intimacy in exchange for the pure service of their Vow, Covenant views the Bloodguard's choice as one of uncompromising extremity that verges on the inhuman.

As is often the case with Covenant, particularly in the early books, he is capable of great insight into others without necessarily turning those same insights inwards; if he were capable of doing so in this chapter he might come to recognise the essential futility of his own 'vow' to the 'laws' of his leprosy.


Good Post
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
wayfriend
whilom witling

Male
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 18903

Thanks: 11
Thanked 220 Times in 203 Posts

Location: The world of the Bowling Green Massacre
43338 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
3 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Hellfire! It isn't like salad dressing - you can't just spoon it around."


(Other things aside, this does appear to be an emulation of Tolkien's "like butter scraped over too much bread".)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Cord Hurn
Servant Of The Band

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 5090

Thanks: 988
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts

Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA
4933 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Plains of Ra1 Furls Fire1 Andelain


PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shuram Gudatetris wrote:
It occurred to me while reading Chapter Fourteen, that SRD was light-years ahead of his time....

Chapter 14: The Council of Lords

Lord Osondrea asked, "How many ships will you need?"

With a glance at Biriniar's upright dignity, Foamfollower contained his humor, and replied simply, "Seven. Perhaps five."

"Can this be done?" Osondrea asked Birinair again, distinctly but without irritation.

The Hearthrall pulled a small tablet and stylus from his robe and began to calculate, muttering to himself.


[/u]



I can't help but love this... Very Happy
_________________
Jehannum
The Celebration of Spring

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Group Readings -> 1st Chronicles All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch