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What if Covenant had drunk the Blood?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vizidor wrote:
Thomas Covenant, the way I see him, isn't exactly the anti-hero more so the anti-fantasist.

I agree, and have said as much before. Specifically: there's nothing Earthblood can do to help Covenant because whatever it might do won't affect his life when he returns to haven farm.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Vizidor wrote:
Thomas Covenant, the way I see him, isn't exactly the anti-hero more so the anti-fantasist.

I agree, and have said as much before. Specifically: there's nothing Earthblood can do to help Covenant because whatever it might do won't affect his life when he returns to haven farm.


Wow.. OK I need to read that when I have more than 5 mins to take it all in. Thats a long and detailed dissertation of your thoughts at the time. You typically are very insightful and I will take the time tomorrow to do a thorough read.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is interesting in that it makes one take a good look at the circumstances of the scene in question.

When Elena drank the Earthblood I knew she was going to use it in a disastrous way. The narrative leading up to that event made it abundantly clear.

The question would or wouldn't Covenant drink and what would happen is really not the point since his character doesn't function that way in the story and therefore couldn't drink the blood in any case.

The real question (which has been touched on in this thread already) is what should Elena have asked for? She can't ask for anything that would effect Foul directly. Sending Kevin was so obviously idiotic that the choice borders on outright insanity. No one reading the book would choose that path however there must have been something that could have aided the defense of the Land in some positive way that the consequences would have been acceptable. Although Lord Foul, the Ravers and the Illearth Stone are all super powered, supernatural obstacles to be overcome, the armies that Foul has created are composed of mortal creatures and could have been reduced or even wiped out by a clever use of the POC.

Could Elena have asked for the Giant part of the Giant Ravers to suddenly die?
Could she have asked for an instant understanding of all of the 6 written Wards of Kevin's lore? (Would probably work except there would be some painful consequence like her brain would have been fried etc)
Had Covenant told her about them, could she have asked for Machine Guns? (Hehehe...no.)

My point is had the Elena character taken the time to carefully reason out the best course of action she quite possibly could have come up with a solution that didn't include doing something as universally stupid as resurrecting the dead. In this High Lord Elena has a lot in common with Linden Avery. So says a member of THOOLAH. Big Grin
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Last edited by aTOMiC on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elena had 2 heroes; Kevin and Covenant. W#hat if she ordered Covenant to battle Foul?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dANdeLION wrote:
Elena had 2 heroes; Kevin and Covenant. W#hat if she ordered Covenant to battle Foul?


I believe Amok said "The White Gold cannot be commanded."

As Morham reveals at the beginning of The Power that Preserves, Covenant himself is the white gold. I think it is safe to say that Amok knows this, and I would be surprised if Elena didn't know it as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IrrationalSanity wrote:
dANdeLION wrote:
Elena had 2 heroes; Kevin and Covenant. W#hat if she ordered Covenant to battle Foul?


I believe Amok said "The White Gold cannot be commanded."

As Morham reveals at the beginning of The Power that Preserves, Covenant himself is the white gold. I think it is safe to say that Amok knows this, and I would be surprised if Elena didn't know it as well.


I agree IS. In addition Covenant comes from outside the Arch of Time and is probably immune to the Power of Command in a similar way that Foul would be but the White Gold is unquestionably the more obvious aspect.

There are two major character flaws that Elena possesses that dAN points out and they have to do with an unhealthy interest in both Covenant and Kevin which somewhat invalidates her as rational choice to use the POC in the first place. Of all of the Lords Mhoram and possibly Prothal would have possessed the wisdom to use the POC in a responsible way, provided that's even possible. Kevin chose to set off a multi-megaton nuclear blast to try to defeat Foul rather than drink the Earthblood so either he was an idiot, so demented by despair that he couldn't see the forest for the trees or understood that it was of no practical use.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or Kevin never had the "power of command" to use in the first place, when he faced Lord Foul. By that I mean, Kevin was alone and had no army behind him.
Although I do like the idea that Kevin led an army of Fire Lions down onto Lord Foul - just as he was on point of choking on his laughter. Ah, the sweet joys of fantasy!

The "power of command" is only mentioned once, if I remember correctly. I think Quaan says it in the company of Covenant and Mhoram ... maybe. Of course Morin and Bannor say something similar about hearing it whispered in the Council of High Lord Kevin, (then it's capitalized and used with zero effect).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if Elena ordered the Worm of the World's End to remain sleeping forever?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dANdeLION wrote:
What if Elena ordered the Worm of the World's End to remain sleeping forever?


There was ZERO chance she would have thought of that since it wasn't very high on her "to do" list at the time.

Her problem was that she had tunnel vision. She could have commanded an indestructible Jar Jar Binks to appear before Foul for the rest of his life. Or make Foul hear Billy Joel's Piano Man over and over and over in his head for all eternity. She just was't using her imagination.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
+JMJ+
pasdaddy wrote:
What if Covenant had drunk the Blood?

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.


Ghostbusters reference. You are my new hero.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Elena should've commanded? How about bringing back Berek? He might be less learned and powerful compared to Kevin but he was spiritually perfect which is more important. Of course Elena believes in the power of despair (which is somewhat similar to Covenant's moral beliefs)

In her place I'd try to undo Kevin's desecration. May not help much against Foul and the army. Not even sure if it's feasible but is it not worth doing for its own sake? It's what the PoC is all about. Changing the Laws of Creation for the better. Or instead of just undoing the Desecration, how about restoring the One Forest to its former glory all across the Land? That could even be an answer to Foul. The present One Forest remnant destroyed the Raver army. What could Big One Forest do? Both this and the breaking of the Law of Death and Life are a sort of erasing of consequences and guilt. Spoiler:
Like Covenant's resurrection it would most likely wake the Worm.
It doesn't really cleanse you of guilt but it is a good thing to do nonetheless.

It raises the question, were the Old Lords wrong not to try to do this back when they were around. They were much more qualified for it magically and knowledge-wise and the sin (the destruction of the One Forest) was closer to them as well. Was it selfishness that held them back (where would they live if they turned the Land back into the now people-hating One Forest?) or lack of confidence in their ability or was it simply beyond anyone to accomplish such a thing even with the PoC?


As for Covenant, if he drank the Blood, he'd use to try and save his daughter. He didn't care enough about Foul but he did care about his strange daughter. He could undo her command though would that get rid of Kevin or just prevent other dead from being raised in the future? Alternatively he could try and correct the basic flaw he just saw in her. What would commanding her to cease to be his rape daughter mean though?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elena could have done great damage to Foul with the POC. She could have destroyed the Ravers. She could have withered his creatures and servant beings in his armies. She could have brought the Creche down around his ears.

The #1 thing I would have done, however, would have been to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone. That one action would have reduced Foul's power right across the board.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Elena could have done great damage to Foul with the POC. She could have destroyed the Ravers. She could have withered his creatures and servant beings in his armies. She could have brought the Creche down around his ears.

The #1 thing I would have done, however, would have been to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone. That one action would have reduced Foul's power right across the board.


Amok explains to Elena and Covenant why that might not have been such a good idea. In ch.25 of TIW he explains the limitations to the Power of Command.

"The first of these hazards - first, but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged - the Power cannot compel him.

"This alone might have given Kevin pause. Perhaps he did not drink of the Blood because he could not conceive how to levy any Command against the Despiser. But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land. Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:


Amok explains to Elena and Covenant why that might not have been such a good idea. In ch.25 of TIW he explains the limitations to the Power of Command.

"The first of these hazards - first, but perhaps not foremost - is the one great limit of the Power. It holds no sway over anything which is not a natural part of the Earth's creation. Thus it is not possible to Command the Despiser to cease his warring. It is not possible to Command his death. He lived before the arch of Time was forged - the Power cannot compel him.

"This alone might have given Kevin pause. Perhaps he did not drink of the Blood because he could not conceive how to levy any Command against the Despiser. But there is another and subtler hazard. Here any soul with the courage to drink may give a Command - but there are few who can foresee the outcome of what they have enacted. When such immeasurable force is unleashed upon the Earth, any accomplishment may recoil upon its accomplisher. If a drinker were to Command the destruction of the Illearth Stone, perhaps the Stone's evil would survive uncontained to blight the whole Land. Here the drinker who is not also a prophet risks self-betrayal. Here are possibilities of Desecration which even High Lord Kevin in his despair left slumbering and untouched."


Yes I am aware of his speculation. But at the time and in the situation, it was the Illearth Stone that was allowing Foul to commit horrible atrocities and create Giant-Ravers and other perversions.

I would have risked it.
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