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Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie?
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Matthias
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mind if I chime in? Smile

So, I'm re-reading LFB right now and I'm on the chapter when TC and Atiaran are at Woodhelven. I can't help thinking this entire time that Michael Fassbender would be an amazing Thomas Covenant. The man can play anything.

Upon thinking what sort of medium this story could be told, I realize that full-length movie *might* not be the best way to show it. I would shell out money for an HBO series of Thomas Covenant. Hands down.

I would also write the script if they'd let me Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cameraman Jenn wrote:
For a video rendition of LFB check out

www.fantasybedtimehour.com

I don't think you will regret it...


^ What Jenn said ^
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should definitely be a movie. It could be done by a talented screenwriter and a good director. Hire SRD as a consultant. Overcome his objections with a dump truck filled with cash.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Is it unrealistic to even attempt to make a movie? Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Not that I wouldn't be in glorious heaven if this were made into a cable series. But there are some obstacles worth discussing. For example, the lack of sexual encounters in the story. Big cable series seem to succeed (and so are green-lit) when they have several protagonists, soap-opera drama, and juicy hookups on a frequent basis. The Chronicles lacks.


I don't think those obstacles would be as pronounced as you think WF ..

When I consider the likelihood of whether TCoTC could succeed or not, two things buoy me:

1) with the ever-increasing acceptance of genre-centric entertainment - e.g. fantasy (Game of Thrones, the Hobbit films), sci-fi (Dr Who, the Expanse) and superhero films( the Marvel/DC omniverses) - studios and production companies are more likely to take a chance on a fantasy epic than ever before.

2) the success of shows with complex anti-hero protagonists (Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos) means studios and production companies are more likely to take a chance on grumpy lepers than ever before.

To me, the thing that would make studios skittish would definitely be the rape - and again, more than ever before.

Even a huge show like Game of Thrones has copped flak for it's depiction of rape, and any Covenant adaptation would need to handle TC's crime incredibly delicately for it to even stand a chance.

As for sexiness/hook-ups, Lord of the Rings is all but sexless, and Breaking Bad - one of my favourite shows, with a compelling but often despicable protagonist - eschewed that kind of thing too. It needn't be any kind of deal breaker.
And, if any TCoTC series were to make it through to the 2nd chronicles, the introduction of Linden brings a whole will-they won't-they element..

The rape though, is, as they say, problematic.
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's be honest - the rape of Lena could be cut out altogether. Maybe he beats her up. Maybe he emotionally abuses/berates her. Maybe he just repudiates her affection and love. We don't need it to be rape for Covenant to:

a) come off as an asshole

b) have guilt/something to atone for/something eating at him.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Let's be honest - the rape of Lena could be cut out altogether. Maybe he beats her up. Maybe he emotionally abuses/berates her. Maybe he just repudiates her affection and love. We don't need it to be rape for Covenant to:

a) come off as an asshole

b) have guilt/something to atone for/something eating at him.


I disagree. The rape of Lena is pivotal to the entire series. Without it, you don't have the subsequent books, really.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matthias wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
Let's be honest - the rape of Lena could be cut out altogether. Maybe he beats her up. Maybe he emotionally abuses/berates her. Maybe he just repudiates her affection and love. We don't need it to be rape for Covenant to:

a) come off as an asshole

b) have guilt/something to atone for/something eating at him.


I disagree. The rape of Lena is pivotal to the entire series. Without it, you don't have the subsequent books, really.


Without it you don't have Elena. You also don't have Atiaran's attempted summoning of Covenant that brings Hile Troy to the Land, and so you don't have Hile Troy. You don't have the conflicted Trell and Triock. You don't have the breaking of the Law of Death. You don't have the destruction of the Staff of Law, and thus you don't have the Sunbane. Is that enough to go on with?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely. Of course any adaptation is going to have changes from the book, that's not only expected it's compelled.

However, any story has parts that are, in an ascending order, superfluous, tone-setting, character-making, plot-driving, integral, and critical. You could, for example, have Bannor join Covenant and Foamfollower when they go to Foul's Creche. That's changing an integral part of the story, but it's not a critical one - it doesn't affect the core of Donaldson's story of self-empowerment.

But the rape of Lena, and the subsequent birth of Elena, is indeed critical. Not because it may necessitate sweeping plot changes. (However, it only mandates that Elena is not Covenant's daughter.) But because it articulates the place that Covenant starts from in the story - dangerous and unbelieving - and that there are actual consequences that Covenant unleashes and then later must confront.

Rape is the worst form of evil in this story. Covenant enacts the worst form of evil. What other form of evil should we see Covenant enact instead? Throwing puppies into a wood chipper? No, there is no suitable replacement for the rape.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


Rape is the worst form of evil in this story. Covenant enacts the worst form of evil. What other form of evil should we see Covenant enact instead? Throwing puppies into a wood chipper? No, there is no suitable replacement for the rape.


I suppose it would take some of the sting away if it was depicted as a statutory rape, somewhat consensual. Covenant knows its terribly wrong to have sex with a 16 year old girl but does it anyway for the same reasons as the book. Trell's family is still shattered. Triock still hates TC. Elena is still a product of their union. Lena is still driven mad as Covenant still leaves her behind. And of course both Covenant and the people of the Land view it as a crime so the motivations and interlocking actions still function.

Its one thing to describe TC as a confused but despicable rapist its quite another to depict it in a film. The audience may never be able to forgive the character the way a reader does, especially if Lena is shown to be an unwilling victim of a violent crime. If she's shown to be a naive girl who falls in love and has sex with a man old enough to be her father, and who is a massive jerk, then it at least eases the audience's acceptance of the event. The next morning Covenant shuns Lena because he feels intense guilt that she doesn't understand. She rushes off to ask the elders to allow them to marry and Covenant sheepishly leaves with Atairan who finds out from Triock what happened with Lena the same way as in the book.

Of course it all depends on what kind of tone you want this story to adopt.

If it was comparable to Game of Thrones (Sansa Stark) the rape would have an impact but not the way it would if the film was more altruistic like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Not that I wouldn't be in glorious heaven if this were made into a cable series. But there are some obstacles worth discussing. For example, the lack of sexual encounters in the story. Big cable series seem to succeed (and so are green-lit) when they have several protagonists, soap-opera drama, and juicy hookups on a frequent basis. The Chronicles lacks.


How to spice up the 1st Chronicles and make it sell-able to a mainstream audience without altering the story too much to piss off the fans:

Make the Bloodguard 100% gay. I'm not gay bashing, I think it would be interesting. Gays are typically portrayed as feminine. Having them as the most physically masculine warriors would be a nice twist. Make it so the Haruchai race in general are straight but the gays are the best fighters and they are the ones that discover the Land. Add strong Bloodguard females as well.

Add more Giants to the cast and make them horny as well as happy.

TC still has his hurtloam erection but only has consensual sex with Lena but his Wildmagic sperm is what makes Lena crazy. TC wants nothing to do with Lena and that is what makes Tirock and Antirian and Trell and the audience hate him but still allows for TC actions figures to be sold.

Make a love triangle between 3 New Lords. There would be mind-meld issues and a season ending reveal all test-of-truth!

Elena keeps Hile Troy frustrated in the friend zone for 2 seasons.

Other protagonists? The rise of Lord Mhoram to High Lord. He will be the glue that holds the entire 1st Chronicle together.

Second Chronicles? Lady Alif. Nuff said.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, HLT ... what about human/Giant sex? Twisted Evil

aTOMic, Covenant being despicable is what's critical. If the audience doesn't hate him, then we've lost the essence - if it's not about a messed up person acting despicably and then becoming a hero, then it's not the Chronicles. Just sayin'.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
Wait, HLT ... what about human/Giant sex? Twisted Evil

aTOMic, Covenant being despicable is what's critical. If the audience doesn't hate him, then we've lost the essence - if it's not about a messed up person acting despicably and then becoming a hero, then it's not the Chronicles. Just sayin'.



I don't disagree but there are levels that surpass the tolerance of the viewing public at large. Fans will get it. The uninitiated may just end up hating the movie, not just the protagonist.

If the film makers choose an actor that is inherently unsympathetic you may not be able to win the audience back with positive character development. All I am saying is you have to be careful or you'll have a critical win but a box office failure.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:

Without it you don't have Elena. You also don't have Atiaran's attempted summoning of Covenant that brings Hile Troy to the Land, and so you don't have Hile Troy. You don't have the conflicted Trell and Triock. You don't have the breaking of the Law of Death. You don't have the destruction of the Staff of Law, and thus you don't have the Sunbane. Is that enough to go on with?


Disagree with your premise. Let me give you an alternate scenario:

Covenant is healed, and in a fit of passion/freakout/whatever he has sex with Lena, who is willing and eager. She thinks he will love her and they will be together forever and she will be the wife of the ur-Lord (or whatever). Naive young girl stuff.

After they sleep together Covenant's sense returns and he tells her it was a mistake, he repudiates her love and tells her he wants nothing to do with her/can have nothing to do with her.

Lena is horribly heartbroken, and finds she is pregnant as well.

Ta da! We still have Elena! People are still pissed and angry. He's still a guilt-ridden statuatory raping asshole.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
But the rape of Lena, and the subsequent birth of Elena, is indeed critical. Not because it may necessitate sweeping plot changes. (However, it only mandates that Elena is not Covenant's daughter.) But because it articulates the place that Covenant starts from in the story - dangerous and unbelieving - and that there are actual consequences that Covenant unleashes and then later must confront.


Yes. This is the critical point, especially the "dangerous and unbelieving" starting point.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a little nonplussed by the references to "statutory rape" in some posts. We are not told what the norms of the people of the Land are in relation to consensual sex between girls of Lena's age and men of Covenant's age.

What we are told is that "Something that her people thought of as a gift had been torn from her." That is the heart of the matter in terms of the story. If Covenant had received Lena's intimacy as a freely given gift, rather than tearing it from her, the situation would have been completely different morally.

We are not told anything in the text that allows us to conclude that the fact that Lena is below the statutory age of consent in some US States (but not in others, not in Canada, and not in most Australian jurisdictions, to give just some examples) would have any bearing on the moral status of her, or Covenant's, freely chosen actions in the Land.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DP, in my post I referenced statutory rape in an attempt to decribe a scenario that would assist in making the COTC palatable to a film audience with no previous knowledge of the story.

Of course those of us that are aware of intimate details would view things quite differently.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

This has prolly already been mentioned, but beyond simply the rape (which I agree has to be kept) is the question of how to visually show Earthpower, rather than simply describing its psycho-physicial impact? One can't really rely on gawkish SFX (which more-or-less worked in LOTR simply because the scenes in question had short screen times).

So, on the one hand, you can't have Covenant walking around for 2 hrs spouting dialogue about how "sublimely etherial" and "ontologically deepened" and "achingly poignant" is every precious moment in the Land when compared to the "impoverished banality" and "vulgar ubiquity" and "superficial normality" of his former reality.

And OTOH, you can't film the entirety of the story in the CGI equivalent of a fisheye lens.

So, whaddya do?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wos, are you speaking about Earthpower, or health-sense? I think the latter is the difficult one.

Earthpower can be shown simply by it's effect. However, seeing the Earthpower inherent in something is a matter of health-sense.

I have been thinking about that. I think that something can be done that is similar to what was done for Lucy and some other movies. For example.

The trick is to not show visible health all the time. When it is shown, it's clear that your seeing it through the character's eyes, seeing what he/she sees. And you only need to do this when they are particularly focusing on it.

Someone might even develop a health "language", such that good health is visible as a golden glow, rot as a gangrenous black, strength is a blue mesh, evil as lurid green veins, etc. Argent is for wild magic. So Earthpower could be conveyed by, say, a rosy aura.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

wayfriend wrote:
Wos, are you speaking about Earthpower, or health-sense? I think the latter is the difficult one.


Although that distinction is both textually and technically accurate, I prolly tend to associate the two so closely in my mind that they become almost indissociable, at least within the general story-telling context. True enuff though that Earthpower is still Earthpower, even when Covenant is deprived of his health-sense.

wayfriend wrote:
Earthpower can be shown simply by it's effect. However, seeing the Earthpower inherent in something is a matter of health-sense.

I have been thinking about that. I think that something can be done that is similar to what was done for Lucy and some other movies. For example.

The trick is to not show visible health all the time. When it is shown, it's clear that your seeing it through the character's eyes, seeing what he/she sees. And you only need to do this when they are particularly focusing on it.

Someone might even develop a health "language", such that good health is visible as a golden glow, rot as a gangrenous black, strength is a blue mesh, evil as lurid green veins, etc. Argent is for wild magic. So Earthpower could be conveyed by, say, a rosy aura.


Sure, those are workable and sensical ways of addressing the issues, but pulling off the whole shebang both without excessive expository dialogue and with a filmic naturalness would seem to require just the right choice in director and crew.

The Chrons seem to present certain singular hurdles to an artful film translation that weren't present in LOTR and The Hobbit. I enjoy hearing people bat around their ideas as to how to surmount them.
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