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Dumb and avoidable errors by Lord Foul and the Ravers
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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:

This is an interesting question. Perhaps the answer can be found by reading Ch.1 of AATE where we learn that, for ages prior to his arrival in the Land, Lord Foul had been exploring the Earth and experimenting with different powers in order to try to find some tool that would serve his ultimate purposes. Even after entering the Land he tried different strategies at different times (which is, after all, why we have three Chronicles as well as the back story of the battles between Foul and the Old Lords).

On this basis we could conjecture that the RoD was another of Foul's experiments. He may, for example, have hoped that the puissance of the Ritual would awaken the Worm of the World's End.


Point taken. Perhaps you are right.

But Foul never totally mastered the Land. The first time he was close to total domination, he destroyed his own armies and reduced himself for 10 centuries.

IMO he should have finished defeating the forces of "good", tortured Kevin to death at his leisure in the Creche, and then maybe taken a few hundred hears trying to find some way to break the Arch besides Desecration. If he came up empty, he could probably find some other tool or lackey to enact the Ritual with him.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
DrPaul wrote:

This is an interesting question. Perhaps the answer can be found by reading Ch.1 of AATE where we learn that, for ages prior to his arrival in the Land, Lord Foul had been exploring the Earth and experimenting with different powers in order to try to find some tool that would serve his ultimate purposes. Even after entering the Land he tried different strategies at different times (which is, after all, why we have three Chronicles as well as the back story of the battles between Foul and the Old Lords).

On this basis we could conjecture that the RoD was another of Foul's experiments. He may, for example, have hoped that the puissance of the Ritual would awaken the Worm of the World's End.


Point taken. Perhaps you are right.

But Foul never totally mastered the Land. The first time he was close to total domination, he destroyed his own armies and reduced himself for 10 centuries.

IMO he should have finished defeating the forces of "good", tortured Kevin to death at his leisure in the Creche, and then maybe taken a few hundred hears trying to find some way to break the Arch besides Desecration. If he came up empty, he could probably find some other tool or lackey to enact the Ritual with him.


Foul seems like a character that finds it easy to fall in love with his set plans, to the point that he can't "change course" to a better idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord Hurn wrote:
Horrim Carabal wrote:
DrPaul wrote:

This is an interesting question. Perhaps the answer can be found by reading Ch.1 of AATE where we learn that, for ages prior to his arrival in the Land, Lord Foul had been exploring the Earth and experimenting with different powers in order to try to find some tool that would serve his ultimate purposes. Even after entering the Land he tried different strategies at different times (which is, after all, why we have three Chronicles as well as the back story of the battles between Foul and the Old Lords).

On this basis we could conjecture that the RoD was another of Foul's experiments. He may, for example, have hoped that the puissance of the Ritual would awaken the Worm of the World's End.


Point taken. Perhaps you are right.

But Foul never totally mastered the Land. The first time he was close to total domination, he destroyed his own armies and reduced himself for 10 centuries.

IMO he should have finished defeating the forces of "good", tortured Kevin to death at his leisure in the Creche, and then maybe taken a few hundred hears trying to find some way to break the Arch besides Desecration. If he came up empty, he could probably find some other tool or lackey to enact the Ritual with him.


Foul seems like a character that finds it easy to fall in love with his set plans, to the point that he can't "change course" to a better idea.


Well that's the thing. In all three Chronicles his plans are very well-laid and come very close to succeeding, and yet three times in a row he is thwarted because the petty mortals that he has played like a Stradivarius right through the story turn out, in the end, to be able to make choices he doesn't expect, or to see further than he does about the consequences of those of their choices that he does expect. That such people are able to surmount all the tests and challenges that he subjects them to points to the fact that (as Covenant implies in the Epilogue to The Last Chronicles) Foul has misconceived his cosmic vocation.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would expand on that, Dr. P. It's not just that they "make choices he doesn't expect". It's much more specific, I feel.

Covenant, and Linden, and Jeremiah, surprise Foul with unexpected inner strength. They do not succumb to futility when he expects them to -- they find the strength to try -- to not give up -- when he believes that they cannot. They figure out that they cannot be Foul's victim unless they concede that they are.

This is important because this is what, ultimately, the Chronicles are about. The whole thing falls apart, in the sense of making a statement about the human condition, if Foul loses by a happy accident.

And it's not entirely about being "from outside time", either. Roger and Joan are also such people, but they do not succeed against Foul. Being from someplace outside the Land doesn't make you Foul-proof.

What is important is that people from our world - our ordinary world - have the capacity to defeat Foul if they try. If they learn the right lessons about futility and passion. We can be heroes. This is what connects the Chronicles to our lives.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with that, wayfriend.
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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree as well!
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Foul and the Ritual, in FR (IIRC) Roger or Jeremiah says that, pre-white gold, Foul's theory about how to break the Arch revolved around provoking the Creator. Like, if something atrocious enough happened, maybe the Creator would intervene... So convincing the last of the Old Lords to devastate the Land, might've seemed like the way to go (a good guy using such evil means would've appalled the Creator more than an evil guy using evil means, as it were).
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting take...

I'd love to learn what Foul's other attempts/plots to break the Arch (besides white gold or provoking the Creator) were. Did his time with the demimages ever lead to such attempts? Did he ever mess with the Elohim? Did he ever think to try to wake the Worm?
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
Interesting take...

I'd love to learn what Foul's other attempts/plots to break the Arch (besides white gold or provoking the Creator) were. Did his time with the demimages ever lead to such attempts? Did he ever mess with the Elohim? Did he ever think to try to wake the Worm?


The answers to your questions are contained (or at least suggested) in Chapter One of AATE.
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