Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Psychology and Scientology

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Psychology and Scientology Reply with quote

I was thinking of titling this thread "The origins" or "The source" of Scientology, so this has nothing to do with Scientology's antagonism towards psychiatry (which, after all, isn't totally unreasonable, I confess to believe).

I live in a town called Port Orchard, near Seattle, WA. Unbeknownst to me until only a few years ago, L. Ron Hubbard lived both here and in Bremerton (a ten--minute drive away) over the course of his life, and in fact while living in PO specifically he wrote a book called Excalibur, which apparently was the first out-and-out Scientological book he wrote, though it's not a public document as far as I know. So anyway, I have my own odd local reasons for interest in this group...

... and we all (or some of us) know the caricature: the evil alien overlord Xeenu rounds up tons of sentient beings and massacres them by using nuclear weapons on volcanoes, here on Earth, the attack unleashed by ships that look like jumbo jet planes. Then, the ghosts of the massacre are taken to a cinematic facility and indoctrinated with memes that lead, one day, to Christianity and so on.

So far, so bad. But though the story above is supposedly meant to be kept secret by the cult/group, it has become public, such that the c/g doesn't deny it so much as qualify it: I read, recently, that the official(ish) position of the Scientology church is that the story is something of a parable.

A parable of what? It is my semifirm conviction that much of religion is based on subconscious moral information processing on a mass scale. People who met Jesus interpreted Him as the Messiah or God because, deep down inside, knowing the condition of their world, they realized that if His plan worked, such as it was, it would lead to an epochal transformation for said world. Mohammed showed up under roughly analogous circumstances elsewhere, to analogous effect. And so on and on. (Mormonism seems to have been helped by illicit administration of pyschoactive mushrooms to early members, cloaked in the sacraments.)

Scientology is a modern religion. Its preoccupation with cinema reflects this. Now LRH apparently had a problem of some kind with amphetamine abuse, skewed his mind plenty and all, so let's say he has a genuine insight (about the religious-political potential of the film industry) that got caught up in his mania and, by the time it percolated to his conscious musings, took the form of the Xeenu narrative.

That doesn't mean the Scientology church as it has survived its founder, kept to the mutant form of his insight. But so what is the insight in question? I think there's a reason Scientology is involved with Hollywood so much. I think there's a reason J. J. Abrams, for instance, was a Scientologist but peaceably left the church. And that reason is:

The power of books is pretty impressive. The phenomenon of scripture in the past, appears nowadays in the devotion people express towards epic fantasy stories (e.g. Harry Potter or, for us, Thomas Covenant). The notion of divine revelation is of course that it is communication from heaven. Before movies, though, then, only a book could seem to people to be the communication in question.

But if God existed, why would It only communicate through a book? Or just one book, even if that book took centuries to form? The mysterious ways of the Lord could, of course, account for such. But I think that people subconsciously have gravitated towards specific books as revelation just because that's the only form of communication that has existed in the relevant way, for most of recorded history.

Nowadays, then, movies have the potential to be "scripture." Scientology is, I suspect or suppose, as such, based on the recognition that if the film industry is used in a certain way, the natural basis for attribution of scriptural authority to books can be redirected towards movies. That is, the goal of Scientology is to make a movie that captivates people just as much as the Bible or the Quran have.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The unsettling film The Master has at least one key insight into LRH and the Scientology cult(?) Mig; I won't tell you what it is because I think it's revelation is one of the best moments in the film, but as a clue it is during the one moment in the story where the LRH figure Lancaster Dodds looses his cool.

I suspect you have a point about the role of books in revelation - ie, it's by and large confined to books because that was the only medium available - and yes, there is no a priori reason why in the light of new communication technologies 'revelation' shouldn't arrive via alternative conduits. As a digression, I was wondering recently why there have been so few world changing figures like Jesus, Mohammed and the Buddha in history - and what it was about them that made their message stick. I mean, why Jesus and not say Apollonius of Tyana for example? And what of today? Will LRH be the revered personage added to this select list in two millennia from now? Michael Jackson? Donald Trump as the messianic symbol of The Donalds?
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, within one of the main branches of Judaism, there is a belief that a major recent figure might have been the Messiah, might be coming back... Social scientists have been looking at the situation to help reflect on the emergence of the Jesus movement... Damned if I could recall what the guy's name was(/is?)!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting; let me know if you recall any of the details.
(It wasn't me was it. I get these days when I feel positively messianic....... Laughing )
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wosbald
Bloodguard

Male
Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 879

Thanks: 12
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts


2712 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of Linden's Army


PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

peter wrote:
... As a digression, I was wondering recently why there have been so few world changing figures like Jesus, Mohammed and the Buddha in history - and what it was about them that made their message stick. I mean, why Jesus and not say Apollonius of Tyana for example? ...


There is, what I would say, a very interesting methodological bias lurking in this question. And this becomes evident when one isolates the common denominator: Jesus.

On the one hand, you're placing Jesus in comparison/equation with Buddha and Mohammed.

On the other hand, you're placing Jesus in contrast/opposition to Apollonius.

Perhaps balancing this inquiry by reversing the positions of the compare/contrast around the selfsame common denominator would lead to more telling results?
_________________



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To attempt to start to approach Wosbald's suggestion/point/idea: Mohammed, for example, wouldn't have gotten where he did, without the prior existence of Christianity. (He might've gotten somewhere, maybe a neo-Zoroastrian revival vs. local paganism, but he wouldn't have gotten Islam as we know it.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the Koran a second tier of revelation then, that is predicated on the teachings of the first? Not having read it I can't know: in the absence of Jesus there would still have been the earlier prophets - and perhaps said Apollonius (or one of the other messianic figures which apparently were extant at the time) would have in the intervening centuries, risen to 'fill the void'?

Nb. If you have deep faith, of course there are very good reasons why only Jesus could have come to occupy the position that 'history' has accorded him, but the fact remains that there have been other world changing figures that still has to be explained (ie. why so few as opposed to none - or lots).
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as more and more books have come into existence, and served fundamental motivational roles in more and more people's lives, I think we've seen more of the world-changers appear (for lack of a better term...). Kant and Marx come to mind, but then more latterly so do Tolkien or Rowling.

OTOH, to pursue a sort of "naturalistic" explanation for why Jesus is still unique/outranks the other candidates:

By His time, much of the world surrounding Him had come to expect a savior. There's the Fourth Ecologue(?) of Virgil's, or long-standing Zoroastrian Saoshyant expectations, etc. Even Buddhism had been around for a while and the Maitreya was posited (though assumed for a distant era). Now as the twists and turns of Roman history played out, Jesus both filled the savior-slot well enough to keep it, and did so in such a way that no later figure would have as good a chance to attempt the same (so to speak). Like, basically, once He had appeared, the general (regional) expectation was satisfied and never had time to develop anew. Throw in that the #1 alternative to Trinitarian Christianity would have been Islam as a form of Christianity (He's still the Messiah, still coming back to "finish the job," and some Sufis have even argued that the phrase "Son of God" can apply to Him inasmuch as He was, even on their point of view, uniquely indwelt by the Holy Spirit), and then also keep in mind that Hindus could interpret Him as an avatar and Buddhists as maybe not the Maitreya but still something along that line---add this all together, that is, and you get a world with a history that, as long as it remains unbroken, just isn't going to have the relevant slot emptied out, as it goes. (If human civilization somehow collapsed and dissolved and we regressed/progressed back through pre-industrial phases and so on, it's possible that the world would "lost its memory" of Jesus and so a new figure would be given to arise in the rebuilt world.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps as well one needs to think in combination of the man, the teachings and the following, the latter being as important a factor in the continued propagation of the message through time as the former. In our age perhaps the communications revolution creates new 'slots' ripe for the filling ....... and who knows - perhaps LRH will be the one to fill them. Wink
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, and there's the kicker...

However, to bring up Abrams again, I think we'll find a better answer, too.

EDIT: I'm bringing up LOST for several reasons, but the only one I will discuss for the nonce is this: not only did I personally have a very strange reaction to this show, but apparently this phenomenon was not limited to me, there were a good number of people out there who somehow were of a mind to ask themselves, "Is this really just a show?" But if we didn't think that there was really an Island out there on which the fate of the world was being decided, what did we think was "real" about LOST?

EDIT 2: For example, and this is just one example, I found people on an old LOST-related website who appeared to be genuinely arguing about finding a copy of a book that was otherwise just an aspect of the show's mythology. Like, unless they were playing some completely obscure online game, these people really believed that there was a book about the Valenzetti equation out there, with copies being suppressed by the Hanso Foundation. I was so stunned, like, how did these people end up believing such a thing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other examples:

J. K. Rowling. Until STAR WARS is completed, the Harry Potter film series will be, to my knowledge, the longest fantasy series yet made. To say nothing of the books...

But so also, for that matter, STAR WARS itself: it already inspired Jediism(sp.?) as a somehow actual new religious movement.

EDIT: But even so, unless the history of the world were somehow lost to us or whatever, I still don't see Jesus being "dethroned" (if you will...). Both Anakin as virgin-born and Harry Potter as "the Chosen One" are inheritors of the savior-meme satisfied in the real world so well (perfectly, even?) by Christ.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Lost thing interests me Mig; I haven't seen the series but do have some inclinations to do so. Alas, I know how the end went [or think I do - they were all dead weren't they?] and perhaps this would render a watching somewhat obsolete. Lot's of people seemed to regard the end as a 'cop-out' IIRC. Any thoughts on whether I should give it a whirl, even in the light of knowing what happens? [Yours, and others experience is certainly an intriguing one that would interest me in trying out for!]
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vraith
LibTard, Mr. Reliable.


Joined: 21 Nov 2008
Posts: 9727

Thanks: 17
Thanked 85 Times in 83 Posts

Location: everywhere, all the time
34462 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Raver1 Wraith1 Caesure


PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
The Lost thing interests me Mig; I haven't seen the series but do have some inclinations to do so. Alas, I know how the end went [or think I do - they were all dead weren't they?] and perhaps this would render a watching somewhat obsolete. Lot's of people seemed to regard the end as a 'cop-out' IIRC. Any thoughts on whether I should give it a whirl, even in the light of knowing what happens? [Yours, and others experience is certainly an intriguing one that would interest me in trying out for!]


I pretend the ending doesn't exist---
For the rest of it, there are high and low trends/sections...but overall, there are enough performances/characters and storylines that are independent enough or tough enough to survive the ending and still be worth seeing.

_________________
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
-------------------------------------------------------
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: peter re: LOST, as was SRD, the creators of LOST were inspired by Narnia to some extent, so we have a scenario where broken men and women from "our" world end up in a magical scenario in a realm of stunning natural beauty, seeking redemption while dealing with two brothers, one light and one dark, the darker of whom seeks to escape his prison to consume all reality as we know it... There's even a necessity-of-freedom bit nearish the end, where the dark brother can't kill the protagonists directly but has to try to trick them into killing themselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I like the sound of it! Trouble is I have a full box of recordings already and unless I become like Howard Hughes and retreat into a dark room spending all day watching them to the exclusion of all other activities I'm never going to get through them! Laughing (I have the Sopranos, all of 24, and about 40 hours of various stuff on top to give you an idea! Smile .)
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well actually, then, I could say: since you've read the Covenant series you kinda wouldn't need to watch LOST Razz OK, they're not the same; but both do end with everyone in a metaphysical hug-fest Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peter
the spider from Mars


Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 6225

Thanks: 38
Thanked 42 Times in 41 Posts


18894 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh - but does Lost have a rainbow! Laughing
_________________
http://jhfv.blogspot.co.uk/

....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
'Have we not served you well'
'Of course - you know you have.'
'Then let it end.'

We are the Bloodguard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 995

Thanks: 22
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
8429 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, but they open a door and light comes out of it Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> The Close All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch