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How OLD was Mhoram?

 
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Shuram Gudatetris
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:23 am    Post subject: How OLD was Mhoram? Reply with quote

I did a search for Mhoram and didn't see this subject.

It was a tough decision as to whether I put this in 1st and 2nd Chrons or Entire Chrons. I don't understand why all the subjects have not already been combned into one single subject. So I picked Entire bc that is the only option that should exist anyway.

How old was Mhoram in LFB?

It's an interesting subject because his parents are ANCIENT in LFB. They are SO OLD that they are barely even still alive. So, if those are his parents, how old is he?

Kevin's Lore obviously preserves people. Kevin himself lived to be a thousand years?

Variol was a former High Lord, which would indicate he was quite powerful. But if he was so incredibly old in LFB while Mhoram was still a young man, what does that indicate about their ages? Sure, men can have a potent seed even when they are elderly, but Variol's wife was equally as elderly as Variol in LFB.

Is this an indication of Mhoram's incredible strength? Was he already like fifty to 100 years old in LFB? Older??? How old did he live to be anyway? Do we even know?

Ah, I am quite fatigued at this moment, and I think maybe that shows in the lack of clarity within my query. But I think I present a valid question.....What do you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My impression is that the New Lords weren't as buoyed by Earthpower the same way the Old Lords were however they certainly were depicted as having longer than normal life spans.
Mhoram's personality and description in LFB left me with the impression of a normal man between 30 and 35 years old.
In Lord's years that probably translates to a little less than twice that old.

I'm guessing of course.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to Mhoram's age, it is pinned down in TIW I:6.

In The Illearth War was wrote:
Lord Mhoram has seen ten times seven summers - yet he hardly carries fifty of them.

As to longevity:

In The Illearth War was wrote:
To answer him, [Elena] said, "This has been true for as long as there has been such lore in the Land. The Old Lords lived to great age. They were not long-lived as the Giants are - because that is the natural span of their people. No, it was the service of the Earthpower which preserved them, secured them from age long past their normal years. High Lord Kevin lived centuries as people live decades.

"So, too, it is in this present time, though in a lesser way. We do not bring out all the potency of the Lore. And the Warlore does not preserve its followers, so Quaan and his warriors alone of your former comrades carry their full burden of years. But those of the rhadhamaerl and the lillianrill, and the Lords who follow Kevin's Lore, age more slowly than others."
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if he's 70 in ILW, then 30ish would be right for LFB - that's a bit younger than I envisioned him, but it feels right.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how old are his parents then? They are described as being ancient. How did they go from young enough to have kids to being that old in 30 years? Especially in light of the Lords' longevity. It doesn't seem to add up.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool observation. If they looked 90, they must have actually been around 130. Which means they were around 100 when they had a child.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Lords' lore slowed the ageing process and added to their longevity, this would almost certainly have included sustaining their fertility for longer than would be usual.

It would also help to answer our questions if we knew more about the ordinary longevity and health of the people of the Land at the time of LFB. The impression we get is that the Stonedownors and Woodhelvennin enjoy a moderate but certainly adequate material standard of living and so would be free of the diseases and disorders of poverty and of affluence. Their way of life also seems to be free of the stresses of the average worker in a Western industrial society in the 1970s when the book was written, and their environment is free of pollutants. The health sense would also help them to live well. I would expect the average Stonedownor, unless they suffered a life-shortening accident while cattle-herding, to live into their 80s or 90s.

We also see that Quaan, who must have been about 70 at the time of TPTP and who did not have the benefit of the lore to prevent him from naturally ageing, was still strong and fit enough to participate in battle alongside Mhoram. Likewise Triock, who would have been around 65 in TPTP, was able to be a physical guerrilla fighter defending Mithil Stonedown. These people were maintaining their natural vigour well into what would be retirement age in our cultures.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another estimate of the effect of the Lore on longevity and ageing comes from considering Elena. She is 40 at the time of TIW, but the description we are given of her is that of a woman in her late 20s. Let's assume that:

(a) she grew like a normal girl until she was 18;

(b) because of the circumstances of her birth and upbringing, she was precocious in her affinity with Earthpower and her learning of the Lore, and was able to pass the tests of Sword and Staff at about 20 (I think this is a reasonable assumption given what we are told about Elena - after all she is the only young High Lord we encounter).

This suggests that during her time as a Lord the lore slowed the ageing process to somewhat less than half of normal.

Of course in her time the lore available to the Lords was more potent than in the period prior to LFB because the Lords had discovered the Second Ward and regained the Staff of Law.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Mhoram was older than in his 30s in LFB? Is there any info on how long he had been a Lord when Covenant first met him?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akasri wrote:
Perhaps Mhoram was older than in his 30s in LFB? Is there any info on how long he had been a Lord when Covenant first met him?


That was my general thinking going into this, that Mhoram must've been fairly old in LFB if his parents were so incredibly old. But wayfriend pointed it out in an above post that his age is pin-pointed in TIW (a seventh decimate of summers! Wink ).

But, yeah, I figured it was a foreshadowing of sorts for how powerful he was, that he was aging at half or a third of the rate of his fellow Lords. But being about 30 in LFB blows that theory out the window. Maybe it was an oversight on SRD's behalf? Maybe he just *needed* them to be elderly Wink and didn't care squat about the logistics of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:
This suggests that during her time as a Lord the lore slowed the ageing process to somewhat less than half of normal.

"Lord Mhoram has seen ten times seven summers - yet he hardly carries fifty of them" suggests a more modest advantage. Yes, it doesn't have to be the same for everyone, or even the same for one person over time. But genealogy would suggest that Tamarantha and Variol would be more like Mhoram than Elena.

Akasri wrote:
Perhaps Mhoram was older than in his 30s in LFB? Is there any info on how long he had been a Lord when Covenant first met him?

We do know that it was 40 or 41 years between Covenant's first visit and his second. On that we have certainty. So if he was 70 in TIW, he was 30 in LFB.

When we first meet Mhoram, he is described as "the newest Lord".
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, WF.
So, if his 'rents were 60'ish [seemed 40-ish] when he was born, they are 90-ish when we meet them. Even if the seem only 75, 75 ain't an age to be for warring.
---I suspect they're slightly younger than that and the gap between real/apparent smaller---because the Lore known for sure---and Lore/power potential perhaps---increases the effect.
Mhoram was way beyond his parents in both. And Elena too. Good genes from her dad, better schooling at the 'Raat...plus the Staff of Law for at least some time.
They COULD be a bit older, I suppose. But not a lot, I don't think.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
As to Mhoram's age, it is pinned down in TIW I:6.

In The Illearth War was wrote:
Lord Mhoram has seen ten times seven summers - yet he hardly carries fifty of them.

As to longevity:

In The Illearth War was wrote:
To answer him, [Elena] said, "This has been true for as long as there has been such lore in the Land. The Old Lords lived to great age. They were not long-lived as the Giants are - because that is the natural span of their people. No, it was the service of the Earthpower which preserved them, secured them from age long past their normal years. High Lord Kevin lived centuries as people live decades.

"So, too, it is in this present time, though in a lesser way. We do not bring out all the potency of the Lore. And the Warlore does not preserve its followers, so Quaan and his warriors alone of your former comrades carry their full burden of years. But those of the rhadhamaerl and the lillianrill, and the Lords who follow Kevin's Lore, age more slowly than others."


If Mhoram was 70 in TIW, then he managed to age twenty years in the seven years between TIW and TPTP! Razz

In The Power That Preserves, Chapter TWO: Variol-Son, SRD wrote:
....After all the experiences they had shared, they were old comrades--though Quaan, who was twenty years younger than Mhoram, looked twenty years older. And the High Lord frequently found Quaan's blunt, soldierly candor soothing. Quaan was a follower of the Sword who had no desire to know any of the secrets of the Staff.

Despite his seventy years, Quaan carried proudly the insignia of his office: the yellow breastplate with its twin black diagonal slashes, the yellow headband, and the ebony sword....


That makes him 90 according to TPTP.

The math doesn't seem to work out right if you take it literally.

But if SRD was rounding to the nearest tens, let's say Mhoram was 74 in TIW. So he would be 81 in TPTP. So let's say he was fifteen years older than Quaan and SRD rounded that to twenty, that would make Quaan 66 (rounded to seventy).

Rounding seems likely anyhow. I always got the feeling that the events in TPTP were seven times seven years from the relaying of the mesage. So if that was 49 years, the event in TIW would be closer to 42 years, even though it is said to be forty. Assuming the time between those two books is indeed seven years.

I'd also like to note that TPTP reveals that Tamarantha was Staff-Elder decades before Triock studied there, and it is suggested that the Unfettered One who knew her as Staff-Elder had been alone for 80-100 years. So Tamarantha must have been Staff-Elder something like forty years before the events of LFB.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch. Not sure what to make of it.

Shuram Gudatetris wrote:
I always got the feeling that the events in TPTP were seven times seven years from the relaying of the mesage.

I found this odd passage in TPTP:

In The Power That Preserves was wrote:
"No. Loerya, think what you ask. The Unbeliever desired to save a life in his world. But time moves in other ways there. Seven and forty years have passed since he came first to Revelstone, yet in that time he has not aged even three cycles of the moon. Perhaps only moments have gone by for him since his last summoning. If he were called again now, perhaps he would still be prevented from saving the young child who needs him."

So this puts the events of TIW at (about) 40 years after the events of LFB. Which is in agreement with this:

In The Illearth War was wrote:
"He's going to destroy you all. Did you say forty years? You've only got nine left. Or have you forgotten his prophecy?"

So that's consistent ... but this means that there is a whole two years between the events of TPTP and Foul's prophesied victory.
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