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Are demonstrations of political outrage effective?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a complicated topic, but you seem sure of yourself (you said actually) so you must be right, thanks for giving me the facts without sounding patronising.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone can say for sure that change is going to be bad. All we know for sure is our ability to adapt to change. Humans have developed the technology to live in any climate whatsoever. We'll be fine. Without widespread use of fossil fuels, we couldn't live (or grow crops) in the places we already occupy. Fossil fuels are what make our planet habitable, in the way we currently inhabit it. We could not sustain this population without them. Giving up fossil fuels means widespread death, poverty, and suffering. The natural, unaltered environment is actually a hostile, dirty, dangerous place for humans. There are very few places on earth where we could live without intensive alteration and technology. Eden is a myth.

Burning fossil fuels does slightly increase global warming, but not in the way scientists have predicted for the last 30 years. All of their computer generated models have turned out to be false. The actual warming looks a lot closer to CO2's actual contribution to warming, i.e. a logarithmically decreasing function, in which each additional amount of CO2 contributes less and less the more we put into the atmosphere, to the point that it levels off. This mirrors the warming "pause" that we've seen in the last 20 years, which was completely unpredicted by all the models. The problem with the models was that they assumed more than just CO2's contribution--a theoretical, unproven assumption over and above CO2's known effect on warming. For instance, it was assumed that water vapor (a much stronger greenhouse gas) would increase along with CO2. Without increases in other greenhouse gasses, CO2 alone simply does not have the power to produce the catastrophic effects predicted by the alarmists.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prince of Amber wrote:
It's a complicated topic, but you seem sure of yourself (you said actually) so you must be right, thanks for giving me the facts without sounding patronising.
Gosh you passive/aggressive types are just so dang special.

It's not a terribly complicated topic. DDT kills mosquitos, mosquitos spread malaria. DDT hasn't proven to be the boogeyman that Silent Spring made it out to be (it's been debunked as junk science).

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/Carson.html
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is a complicated topic, DDT is not banned all over the World (maybe you were just talking about America - I'm not) - since I'm not a fan of googling a topic and then posting links to the site which supports my argument I won't do that - but I'll bet that mosquitos resistant to DDT are growing in number.

I'm not passive / aggressive at all, I'm British.

It does not matter one bit what I think about climate change - I don't have much chance to do anything about it - except I walk more and eat less meat (and I feel healthier so that's good), I think it will be bad and get a lot worse in my lifetime - it's an opinion, one amongst many.

Back to the topic of this thread - sorry I think it's my fault it went of course, I think demonstrations of political outrage are not effective, just my opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder who has the time to attend all these 'protests'? I have a full time job and I can tell you, I cant get off of work to attend these, to march on Washington, etc etc etc.

Apparently some of the immigrants thought they would be OK taking a day off to protest but because they didn't follow their respective companies policy for requesting time off, many got fired. Go figure.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Apparently some of the immigrants thought they would be OK taking a day off to protest but because they didn't follow their respective companies policy for requesting time off, many got fired. Go figure.
I read about that this morning. They thought it was "unfair" that they got fired for not showing up for work and not calling out. It was unfair to the owners and/or the rest of the employees that they didn't show up.

Screw 'em.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most businesses won't fire someone for being a no-call/no-show for only one day but you will probably be given a verbal and written warning for it. However, if an employer does fire you for being a no-call/no-show and that is their stated policy (you did read the employee handbook, didn't you?) then you have no one to blame but yourself for being fired.

People in the past protested for things which actually needed to change. The ones protesting immigration policy now are actually protesting that they should be allowed to keep their undocumented status--incidentally, the word "undocumented" is merely a euphemism for "illegal"--so they are, in effect, protesting that they should be allowed to continue to break the rules. That isn't a legitimate complaint, not like getting the right to vote or equal rights; rather, it is more like a whiny teenager complaining that they shouldn't have to clean their room.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was listening to a program on NPR this morning called A1A (from the 1st amendment), discussing the latest deportation moves.

What struck me is the apparent unwillingness of many to call these folk exactly what they are;

forget the euphemisms: "undocumented immigrants", "undocumented residents" "undocumented workers".....etc.

they are "illegal aliens.

Call them what they are, and quit making them sound better through better adjectives.

I know most are hard working people attempting to better their lives. So what? They basically skipped the line and entered this country illegally.
I can feel sympathy for their children that were brought here at an early age, and are culturally American if not by birth, and I'm all for doing something for them, they didn't choose this. The parents and such, sorry, send'em back. And that would be nicer than the vast majority of the world treats illegal immigrants, certainly nicer than Mexico treats it's illegals.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most countries, if you are found to be in the country illegally they will figure out where to send you then drop you off at that embassy and say "deal with your problem" if you are lucky. If you are not lucky then you will wind up in jail until they eventually get around to figuring out where to send you. Why should it be different in this country?

Generations of people immigrated to this country legally. They waited in line and sometimes had their names changed/Americanized, but they patiently went through the process and eventually earned citizenship. The newcomers just want to show up and reap the benefits without having to wait like everyone else before them; this is merely indicative of the impatience and narcissistic self-centerdness which plague the modern world.

I agree--the kids who were brought here had nothing to do with the choices which were made for them. They should be granted citizenship, presuming they don't already have it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is what to do with minor children who are here legally. If their parents are illegal and get deported, what do we do with them?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... "undocumented immigrants", "undocumented residents" "undocumented workers", Illegal immigrants..
No such word...

They didn't not come by the gate. They were not screened.
If you enter a country which forbids entry except by a entry access then you have broken their laws.
You are a criminal no less. They should be treated as such.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


Generations of people immigrated to this country legally. They waited in line and sometimes had their names changed/Americanized, but they patiently went through the process and eventually earned citizenship.


To be fair, the process for most of those generations was a hell of a lot easier than it is now, when it can take many years for all the screening etc. to be done.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that the process might be longer, more complex, and more time-consuming now as compared to decades past is irrelevant. This is a light-switch scenario: either you navigated the process legally or you did not. If you did then congratulations and welcome to the United States. If not, then keep looking over your shoulder and sleep fully clothed in case you have to bolt in the middle of the night.

That being said, the process should probably be revamped because despite the problems we seem to have many people are still longing for the chance to get in.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much agree with all of that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More proof that demonstrations of political outrage are wastes of time: employees at Tom Cat Bakery in New York are calling for a "day without bread" after the employer demanded valid working papers--proof of legal residency--from 18 employees, all of whom could be terminated for failure to comply.

I hardly eat bread now, anyway, so a day without bread for me would be just another day. It would be a shame for those people to lose their jobs, yes, but they knew what risk they were taking by working illegally so now that the consequences are here they cannot avoid them.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So who hired them without confirming their legal status in the first place?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An unscrupulous employer who saw a way to pay people less than they would have to otherwise. You don't have to pay payroll taxes on people who are undocumented. You can pay them in cash and just lump it under "human capital expenditures".
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. So at least some of the onus should be borne by the employers. That said, if the employer wants to get legal, well, that's understandable. Not to mention a risk you accept when working illegally.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the wake of a weekend that was marked by numerous NFL players protesting racial injustices in America by kneeling or abstention during the playing of the national anthem, has political protest finally become a permanent component of American professional sports? (I realize that this latest wave of activity is directly related to President Trump's comments).

Political statement has gradually become more noticeable in other forms of entertainment, possibly no more than that shown during awards shows like the Oscars or Emmys.

Is this display of civil discourse effective for its intended cause?

I am an NFL fan and have been since childhood but I'm not sure my fandom will be able to outweigh my dislike of the invasion of politics in casual entertainment. I have to admit to skipping the first 10 to 15 minutes of every game broadcast yesterday to avoid viewing the protests and likewise avoided halftime and post game commentary as well.

I don't really have anything against the players or their wish to bring attention to a cause they feel strongly about but I'm not comfortable with the place and time they've chosen to do it however I understand the motivation to get their point across while they have exposure to such a massive audience.

I realize I am extra sensitive to being purposefully exposed to unrequested political messages so I may be in the minority with regard to my reaction.
Having said that I believe political commentary has a valid and beneficial place in our lives and injustices should be protested vigorously until they are addressed.

I may be thinking selfishly but with so many other interests vying for my attention these days it is becoming harder and harder for me to retain interest and remain loyal to them all and as negativity continues to grow with the NFL experience (concussion concerns are but one of many negative aspects) I am of the belief that one day I may choose to abandon Sunday afternoon football altogether should the trend continue.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
In the wake of a weekend that was marked by numerous NFL players protesting racial injustices in America by kneeling or abstention during the playing of the national anthem, has political protest finally become a permanent component of American professional sports? (I realize that this latest wave of activity is directly related to President Trump's comments).
If you are a black man supporting liberal positions, then sure, you have freedom of speech in the NFL. But if you want to support white police officers who were killed by a Black Lives Matters domestic terrorist, then no free speech for you!

Most of us could not use our time on the clock, or our position as an employee, to make political statements. Most of us have to be careful what we say in social media. People identified in pictures as having been at the Charlottesville pro-Confederate monument rally were fired, and no one worried about their free speech rights.

The athletes are going to destroy the very thing that made them rich and famous, the very thing that empowered them to make this dumb, illogical protest. Generalizing from individual problems (e.g. police brutality) to the country as a whole is not only fallacious and slanderous, it's a big "fuck you" to white America, condemnation of us as a racist country controlled by white supremacists. Even if I were a football fan, I couldn't imagine watching players who hate me, who disrespect me, who are using their wealth and fame to (metaphorically) flip me off. I think it's time we replace them with robots.

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