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Jesus' Ground-Breaking Concept?
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Linna Heartlistener
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait a second guys... Av asked a really remarkable question there!
...about whether Jesus was actually encouraging people to worship him.
That is so central to things.

Wos wrote:
Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.

Rawedge Rim- I don't think I've talked to you as much as most of the people on this thread.
So your ways are not well-known to me. (and mine probably are not to you.)
So I'm going to ask... can I poke at you with some questions?
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? Cuz I thought that you were asking whether or not love is enough.


I'm effectively equating the two...good works arise from your love of your fellow man.

If you want to split them though, then I would think that performing good works is more important than whether you actually love them or not. We are what we do, not what we think.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Wait a second guys... Av asked a really remarkable question there!
...about whether Jesus was actually encouraging people to worship him.
That is so central to things.

Wos wrote:
Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.

^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.

Rawedge Rim- I don't think I've talked to you as much as most of the people on this thread.
So your ways are not well-known to me. (and mine probably are not to you.)
So I'm going to ask... can I poke at you with some questions?


poke away
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Wos wrote:
Note that the scribes asked which commandment (singular) was the most important. Nonetheless, Jesus gave two (numerically speaking) answers.

That's kinda strange, considering that they were asking for him to give a pat, reductive answer. That is, it might be seen as strange, unless he was actually giving a single, unified answer with dual, irreducible poles.


^ I love this!
Because Jesus' answers to people's questions are so sage and subtle.
("Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!")
Sometimes He conceals, and sometimes He reveals.
A Master teacher, a Master counselor.

I love it when I look back in a dialogue, and finding someone gave Jesus a petty, self-interested question -- and totally did not get what they bargained for!
And sometimes he gives His hearers an answer to a better question they should be asking.


Much obliged. Smile

------------------------------------------

Avatar wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
Isn't that moving the goalposts, though? Cuz I thought that you were asking whether or not love is enough.


I'm effectively equating the two...good works arise from your love of your fellow man.

If you want to split them though, then I would think that performing good works is more important than whether you actually love them or not. We are what we do, not what we think.


How does Jesus' death on the Cross factor into this? What is Death "with or without" (indifferent to) love?

Everyone dies. What might make Jesus' death different? So different, that Death/the Cross (something which would seem the antithesis of a work) becomes the Great Work (or even the "ground-breaking concept") of Christianity?
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.

--A
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Avatar wrote:
Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.


Then maybe that's the real place to start the investigation prompted by this thread's OP. How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Than poke I shall!
Rawedge Rim wrote:
...keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple
Do you think a Christian people sometimes have to choose between:
truly loving a neighbor/friend/family member... and loving God?


Wos- I think there's a strong sense in which Av's equating of love and good works is consonant with scripture.
I think he should get some bonus points for that. Wink

Though I was totally not expecting the direction you took that... Jesus' submitting to the cross being in some ways the antithesis of a "work." (I'm chewing on that.)
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Than poke I shall!
Rawedge Rim wrote:
...keep in mind we are talking the order or importance. Over and over the Bible states that love of God takes precedence.

Quote:
Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple
Do you think a Christian people sometimes have to choose between:
truly loving a neighbor/friend/family member... and loving God?


Someone kidnaps you and your family. You sincerely believe in God. They tell you that you must deny God or they will shoot a member of your family. They also tell you that they will keep tabs on you, and if you display any faith in God, they will kill a member of your family. (think Steven Kings "Quitters Inc.) This will go on for the rest of your life.

Do you tell them that you will not renounce God, or do you renounce him?

Keep in mind that hundreds of thousands if not millions have been given this choice throughout history.

and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Doesn't factor for me. If anything, the fact that he died in the sure and certain knowledge of Heaven (taking as given for the sake of argument that all that is factual) makes it less meaningful than the death of any believer who goes in hope, fear or uncertainty.

--A


Keep in mind that he had the option of saying "I don't think so" and skipping out of the crucifixion. By the accounts of the scripture, he certainly had the power to avoid it if he rejected his role in this drama.

Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies.
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Wos- I think there's a strong sense in which Av's equating of love and good works is consonant with scripture.
I think he should get some bonus points for that. Wink


Tru dat. I never open up a can o' whoop-ass on anyone unequivocally.

It was only his suggestion that good works are indifferent to love which prompted the observation that it is only love which makes death the quantum leap from unwork to Great Work.

For God so loved the world …



NOTE: And yes, one demerit for image-maker getting "its" wrong. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wosbald wrote:
How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?


I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:
and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.


Very Happy


Rawedge Rim wrote:
Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies.


Thing is, what did he actually sacrifice? He knew that he would automatically go to heaven and resume his place there. Was that really such a big sacrifice?

--A
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?


I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:
and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.


Very Happy


Rawedge Rim wrote:
Instead he went through it, becoming the "Lamb of God" (not the metal group), the perfect sacrifice, fulfilling the "Law" and the prophesies.


Thing is, what did he actually sacrifice? He knew that he would automatically go to heaven and resume his place there. Was that really such a big sacrifice?

--A


Jesus did not sacrifice his life as you are thinking of it. Instead he "became the ultimate sacrificial lamb" for the expiation of sin in man, hence the title "The Lamb of God".

Quote:
1 Peter 1:19
but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Wosbald wrote:
How could a religion which presented the following of the Master through the path of suffering and death as its animating work and "ground-breaking concept" have gotten the traction so as to have "resulted in large part in the very world we live in today"?


I think at least part of the answer is mentioned by RR below...

Rawedge Rim wrote:
and to be fair, the Church gave many the same choice throughout history.


Very Happy




Think of the question this way:

How did 12 guys manage in a couple of hundred years to convince the Roman Empire to convert to Christianity, especially as 11 died in the process, and one made a living actually killing Christian converts.

Try to convince 12 guys now to do something like that; "hey guys, I need you go out and preach this crazy religion, be dirt poor, and by the way, 11 of you will be tortured and killed in the process, and the last one will die in prison. Oh, and I need you to advocate something that most of your fellow Jews will nearly puke after hearing, which is to eat of the body and blood of Jesus in order to enter heaven."

Quote:
John 6:53


Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linna Heartlistener wrote:


And He gives the scandalous parable of the Prodigal Son.


One of the things that I learned from that parable is that while people tend to learn from the prodigal son, I learn from the other son. I tend to be the 'first' son. Who says "Why is the son who went away and did everything wrong, the one welcomed and a party thrown for." i.e. I go to Church every week, tithe, pray, do for others.. why the big party for the person who did none of that?!

The Father greets him and wraps his arms around him and welcomes him home. And explains, "All I have is yours already, but your brother who was lost, is found."
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not love I am become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal

And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains and have not love I am nothing

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned and have not love it profits me nothing without love
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"He torments himself sufficiently."

My 5 year old nephew Eli
Eli: Dammit!
His mom: Eli, that is not a nice word. We need to find another word to use.
Eli: I am a bad guy mom. I use bad words and fight with my lasers. Dammit!


"All of the above is my opinion and thus shouldnt need to be supported by anything other than more of my opinions. twocents "

We miss you Tracie but your Spirit will always shine brightly on the Watch
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind another of ways that Jesus was ground breaking when set against Jewish tradition and Law:

According to Jewish tradition and law, a person suffering from misfortune was receiving his just punishment for either his own sin or his ancestors. Also according to the priests, it was unlawful, and therefore a sin, to do anything on the Sabbath, even heal the ill.

Quote:

John 9:2-34 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means "Sent"). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

Quote:
13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. 15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see." 16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner perform such signs?" So they were divided. 17Then they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet." 18They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. 19"Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?" 20"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him." 24A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God by telling the truth," they said. "We know this man is a sinner." 25He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!" 26Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?" 27He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?" 28Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from." 30The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing." 34To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

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