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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is why some on the Left keep pushing for national bans on all private ownership of guns. If the people do not have the last resort of fighting back then the government can eventually just take whatever it wants whenever it wants it. That may sound like some sort of fringe, conspiracy-theory, nut job like Alex Jones but it isn't--that is the logical outcome of the agenda those people would like to see put in place.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, I don't think the private ownership of guns is going to be any use in fighting the government. (That's no reason not to own one, but owning one isn't going to protect you from the government if it becomes tyrannical.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Meh, I don't think the private ownership of guns is going to be any use in fighting the government. (That's no reason not to own one, but owning one isn't going to protect you from the government if it becomes tyrannical.)

--A
Nonsense. Tell that to Congressman Scalise. Or Lincoln. Or JFK. Or Reagan. It would be fairly easy for a rather small armed force to take over the government. You don't have to defeat the military. You defeat the soft guys in suits who command it. They're not guarded. Only a few of them actually have security, and those are Secret Service, not military. Hell, the guys in the military are citizens, too. They don't want a dictatorship. They'd probably be grateful for an insurrection (so they don't have to violate their oaths, chain of command, etc.) and support the usurpers. [Disclaimer: I AM NOT ADVOCATING AN ARMED INSURRECTION!!]
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
[Disclaimer: I AM NOT ADVOCATING AN ARMED INSURRECTION!!]



And I though you were a rabble-rouser... Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Contrary to what some movies, TV shows, or novels might depict, the military would not blindly follow orders such as "enter the homes of private citizens and collect all guns". The military knows that it is allowed--required--to disobey illegal orders which violate the Constitution.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Nonsense. Tell that to Congressman Scalise. Or Lincoln. Or JFK. Or Reagan.


Disagree. What about Waco or Ruby Ridge? guns didn't protect them from the government.

Quote:
They'd probably be grateful for an insurrection (so they don't have to violate their oaths, chain of command, etc.) and support the usurpers.


That's the only way it could be done...by getting the military on-side first.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our system there is no reason to believe that government will become tyrannical, excepting that it becomes too much the tool of big business. The political lobbying system in conjunction with the revolving door does represent a danger - but more of a corrupting oligarchical kind than a dictatorial one. I have mixed with hundreds of people a day as they absorb their first contact with the news in the form of the headline of their particular papers flavour: the vast majority of us are led by the nose like sheep in whatever direction our masters decide (and it is done subtlety by nudges, not explicitly by shoves) and are just as likely to rise up as our ovine friends in their pens.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
Nonsense. Tell that to Congressman Scalise. Or Lincoln. Or JFK. Or Reagan.


Disagree. What about Waco or Ruby Ridge? guns didn't protect them from the government.

Quote:
They'd probably be grateful for an insurrection (so they don't have to violate their oaths, chain of command, etc.) and support the usurpers.


That's the only way it could be done...by getting the military on-side first.

--A


What about Afghanistan or Iraq? The military and govts of those areas have been trying to bring armed insurgencies of the populace under control for some time. Never underestimate guerilla warfare.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different situation. They were already in a state of disarray because of the war and invasions.

Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Sure, but it didn't protect them from the government steam-rolling them.

--A
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.


Lets start with Ruby Ridge. Randy Weaver had made friends with someone who turned out to be an ATF informant, because they (the ATF) thought he was part of a larger militia group. When however they found out that this indeed was not the case, they instead charged him with a firearms charge. The Charge? Sawing off the barrel of a shotgun too short. Yep that's it. Then through a clerical error they set the court date to appear incorrectly and he didn't show up. A bench warrant was issued and even though it was a clerical error and that was pointed out to the judge, the judge refused to reverse the warrant.

There was never a resistance to authority or an attack on the State. This was merely the State showing up at someones property and ending up killing a kid and his dog in the dark. Later, a sniper would kill, his wife as well.

Waco on the other hand more clearly a resistance to the State. Although in this case it was so unnecessary because they just wanted to arrest David Koresh (they could have just picked him up in town when buying gas or groceries) and they tried to take the compound by force and initially were not able to. Later after surrounding the compound they tried to tear gas it to force everyone out (due to the cost of the standoff) and the building they were in caught on fire.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.
You have no idea what you're talking about.


C'mon Cail, you can do better than that. You have to make some effort in these pages to explain why you think someones post is adrift; . I made the post in good faith because that's how I understood it to be. I've seen the programs on tv etc; I don't by any means agree with the way those situations were handled, but if I'm correct, in both situations there was a siege situation with armed people firing weapons at the various state officers present. I'm not saying the people fired first, or that the end results weren't tragic and unnecessary - simply that they ended up being as bad as they did because people fired [or returned fire] on the representatives of the Law [be they soldiers, police or whatever] that were there in their official capacity to do whatever. If that is wrong then tell me - educate me as to what is right. I'll be happy to see things from another point of view if it's closer to the truth, and damnit I've been wrong many times before.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.
You have no idea what you're talking about.


C'mon Cail, you can do better than that. You have to make some effort in these pages to explain why you think someones post is adrift; . I made the post in good faith because that's how I understood it to be. I've seen the programs on tv etc; I don't by any means agree with the way those situations were handled, but if I'm correct, in both situations there was a siege situation with armed people firing weapons at the various state officers present. I'm not saying the people fired first, or that the end results weren't tragic and unnecessary - simply that they ended up being as bad as they did because people fired [or returned fire] on the representatives of the Law [be they soldiers, police or whatever] that were there in their official capacity to do whatever. If that is wrong then tell me - educate me as to what is right. I'll be happy to see things from another point of view if it's closer to the truth, and damnit I've been wrong many times before.
SoulBiter summed it up well.

Ruby Ridge was entrapment. The Weaver family was attacked by government agents. The Weaver family defended themselves. Waco was an out-of-control FBI laying siege to a church instead of arresting the one man they wanted when he was in town every day. We can add to those two fiascos the Elian Gonzales assault, in which an out-of-control FBI raided a private home in order to deport a child.

In none of those three cases were the victims the aggressors. The Weaver family and the families in Waco were slaughtered by an out-of-control government.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
peter wrote:
Cail wrote:
The only reason anyone found out about either Waco or Ruby Ridge was due to the armed resistance of the citizens.


Waco and Ruby Ridge happened because of the armed resistance of the people. They were a state reaction, albeit a heavy handed one, to armed resistance of the states authority.
You have no idea what you're talking about.


C'mon Cail, you can do better than that. You have to make some effort in these pages to explain why you think someones post is adrift; . I made the post in good faith because that's how I understood it to be. I've seen the programs on tv etc; I don't by any means agree with the way those situations were handled, but if I'm correct, in both situations there was a siege situation with armed people firing weapons at the various state officers present. I'm not saying the people fired first, or that the end results weren't tragic and unnecessary - simply that they ended up being as bad as they did because people fired [or returned fire] on the representatives of the Law [be they soldiers, police or whatever] that were there in their official capacity to do whatever. If that is wrong then tell me - educate me as to what is right. I'll be happy to see things from another point of view if it's closer to the truth, and damnit I've been wrong many times before.
SoulBiter summed it up well.

Ruby Ridge was entrapment. The Weaver family was attacked by government agents. The Weaver family defended themselves. Waco was an out-of-control FBI laying siege to a church instead of arresting the one man they wanted when he was in town every day. We can add to those two fiascos the Elian Gonzales assault, in which an out-of-control FBI raided a private home in order to deport a child.

In none of those three cases were the victims the aggressors. The Weaver family and the families in Waco were slaughtered by an out-of-control government.
And to this day we have the Left blaming the victims because it happened during a Democrat's presidency and the victims were white. If a Republican president had laid siege to a black church or a mosque, or if Trump was deporting little kids at gunpoint with assault rifles, this would be even bigger than Russia-gate. He would be impeached.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
peter wrote:
C'mon Cail, you can do better than that. You have to make some effort in these pages to explain why you think someones post is adrift; . I made the post in good faith because that's how I understood it to be. I've seen the programs on tv etc; I don't by any means agree with the way those situations were handled, but if I'm correct, in both situations there was a siege situation with armed people firing weapons at the various state officers present. I'm not saying the people fired first, or that the end results weren't tragic and unnecessary - simply that they ended up being as bad as they did because people fired [or returned fire] on the representatives of the Law [be they soldiers, police or whatever] that were there in their official capacity to do whatever. If that is wrong then tell me - educate me as to what is right. I'll be happy to see things from another point of view if it's closer to the truth, and damnit I've been wrong many times before.
SoulBiter summed it up well.


Indeed he did. In both cases, the government shot first.

As important as both events were, though, their aftermath was worse--Oklahoma City was a direct result of both Ruby Ridge and Mt. Carmel. They are the reasons that McVeigh targeted the FBI building.

This is probably why so many law enforcement departments have been eagerly buying as much hand-me-down hardware as the DHS will make available. The military cannot be deployed on American soil but some local police departments and Federal agencies might as well be the military.

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If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

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