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North Korea needs to be put in check
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peter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say it's an interesting take on it. It may or may not be the way forward - but at least it's applying some non-conventional thinking to an otherwise conventional stand-off.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a stand-off. NK's being the belligerent child they've always been, and Trump's not playing the appeasement game with the little shit.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just let the Russians and Chinese that good ole Un is a menace to the
Non-Proliferation Treaty . We would hate to see South Korea, Japan, Tawain
Poland , and other eastern European counties suddenly develop Nuclear weapons for defense purposes.
Then the ME countries will also want their allotments for defense purposes...
Then maybe those two will do something.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The history of this situation stretches back to the second world war and beyond. It's most significant point of origin was the failure to achieve reunification of the country into a single state post its division along the 38h parallel, and both the USA and the then Soviet Union must take their share of the blame for that. The ideological battle between communism and capitalism has had fallout of many kinds down through the decades and Kim Jong Un is simply one of them. The question is, will the UN be given the space to unravel this mess not of the bulk of the world's making - or will we see this grumbling left-over from the second world war, the Korean war, the cold-war blow up to reignite all of those historical animosities. With the greatest of respect I think Trump's unilateral commenting makes the job of the former option more difficult and the latter scenario more likely.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is I think it doesn't matter how one reacts...what KN wants is a reaction (any reaction) to validate their belief that they're relevant.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Former NATO Supreme Allied Commander of Europe Admiral James Stavridis, speaking on Channel 4 News this evening made the observation that while Kim Jong Un's behaviour might be unpredictable, in the light of the fate of Sadam Hussain and Muamar Gadaffi it is not irrational. He knows, said Stavridis, he has to have a nuclear capability in order to survive. He also felt that Trump's contributions were not productive and that the views of South Korea (strongly in favour of a diplomatic negotiated solution) were not being listened to or given due consideration nearly enough. In fact this may be changing somewhat as it seems that a considerably more conciliatory tone is being adopted by US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson who has indicated that he has no interest in regime change and would be happy to sit down for talks with Pyongyang if it halts it's nuclear program.

(And in fairness to Trump, Richard Nixon - no mean operator when it came to international diplomacy - always maintained that in the face of a hostile opponent you should always present an image of mad-dog unpredictability to keep them uncertain of what you would be prepared to do. Are we actually seeing a Trump - Tillerson double act here - a sort of nice cop/ nasty cop routine at the international affairs level?)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is, that's basically everybodies argument. And it's one I'm sympathetic to... When the major powers have nuclear weapons, and are not averse to forcing regime changes in small weak countries and economies, the best way to ensure that you don't get messed with is to make sure you have some nukes of your own.

As for the "double act" that would be nice. I suspect it's too subtle a ploy, but maybe I'm wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They were playing poker. Kim bluffed and raised the stakes, Trump called, and now Kim has folded because his hand wasn't very good. This is not surprising at all--Kim is used to people rolling their eyes and just giving him what he wants.

I also kept seeing people claim that North Korea could--and would--launch a convention shelling campaign on Seoul if the United States did anything. They probably would, yes, but I wonder how many of pieces of North Korean artillery would malfunction--a lot of their stuff is second-rate Chinese hand-me-downs.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump's "fire and fury" statement was specifically aimed at the possibility of a Guam attack. It is no coincidence that such harsh language was followed by NK backing down on their threat. I suppose Trump's language wasn't so reckless after all ...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On today's news in the UK KJU is shown [in footage from a news report in NK] discussing the detail of the 'pending' attack with his generals. On the table around which they stand is a map with a thick red line deliberately visible, running in a straight line from NK to Guam. He was reported by the BBC as saying that how this situation develops is wholly dependant on the actions of the US in the forth coming days. I have to say Z, there was precious little suggestion of any 'backing down' in that report.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
On today's news in the UK KJU is shown [in footage from a news report in NK] discussing the detail of the 'pending' attack with his generals. On the table around which they stand is a map with a thick red line deliberately visible, running in a straight line from NK to Guam. He was reported by the BBC as saying that how this situation develops is wholly dependant on the actions of the US in the forth coming days. I have to say Z, there was precious little suggestion of any 'backing down' in that report.
Well, I'm not surprised that your media downplays anything that might be viewed as positive for Trump. Are you suggesting that the Wall Street Journal has it wrong just because your media left something out?

The fact is that NK hasn't attacked anyone. Those critical of Trump's statement predicted that such rhetoric would force Kim's hand and lead to an attack. That hasn't happened, therefore, the prediction was wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My position has been that the rhetoric used by both leaders in this exchange has been overblown and has served no purpose other than to reduce the likelihood of a diplomatic settlement and increase the likelihood of a military one. It remains so. In respect of trustability in terms of impartiality of coverage, I rate the WSJ neither higher nor lower than the BBC: both will present the news as they see it to be. This situation is crying out for a diplomatic settlement and will most likely get one - but no thanks to either Kim Jong Un's or Trump's grandstanding contributions. But given the debacle Trump finds himself in over the Russiagate affair I imagine every line of news coverage that is directed toward Kim and not toward this he counts as a blessing in his favour.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jong Un doesn't want a diplomatic solution to anything. He is a spoiled brat who knows only one thing: throw a tantrum until he gets his way. The military and political leaders in the DPRK still think it is 1953, which is most of their problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C'mon, when have they ever gotten their way? They rattle their sabres, the west does the same, everything goes back to the way it was before.

NK won't actually do anything because they know that if they did, they would quickly be outclassed.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What they usually want is food or other such aid--as far as I can tell food is scarce in the DPRK. We know the lights don't stay on at night--satellite imagery proves it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't see how threatening to launch a nuke at Guam gets them food...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to feel desperately sorry for the poor people, locked in a nightmare of cold-war politics and repression and unable to express their true nature as one of the most forward thinking and vibrant peoples in the world. Hashi is right - for them the Korean War never ended! Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting you should mention that...just learned yesterday that 20% of the entire North Korean population was killed by US airstrikes in the Korean War. 20%. No wonder they have a grudge.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Thing is, that's basically everybodies argument. And it's one I'm sympathetic to... When the major powers have nuclear weapons, and are not averse to forcing regime changes in small weak countries and economies, the best way to ensure that you don't get messed with is to make sure you have some nukes of your own.

--A


I like this comment! This is a fair point to make. I don't think Nixon was the mad dog leader that you have suggested
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the double post but ... wouldn't let me finish!

So was talking to Peter, he was fairly measured and inherited the Vietnam war, and did escalate to bring the Vietnamese to the negotiating table. He was no Kennedy or Johnson. And he was responsible for ending the Vietnam war. So maybe I missed your point - if so apologies. A thousand of them 😏🤓
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