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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one would bat an eye if a black baker refused to decorate a cake with KKK on the top of it. In fact most of America would be celebrating their stance on the issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:

It's the difference that makes no difference...

Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marriage because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry.


Fair point.

SoulBiter wrote:
No one would bat an eye if a black baker refused to decorate a cake with KKK on the top of it. In fact most of America would be celebrating their stance on the issue.


Some intolerance is tolerable...just depends on what's popular at the time I guess. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marraige because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry."

My guess is 9-0 SCOTUS ruling against the owners.
You think the government has the right to tell people how they can decorate cakes? Seriously? Show me where in the Constitution it says that. If a baker doesn't want to put white and black figures on a cake, that's their own damn business. That's entirely different from refusing to sell a cake to a mixed couple. You do not have the right force people to decorate in ways they don't like. If you don't like the way they decorate, just go somewhere else. The fact that this is going to the SCOTUS is shocking. But I'll be back here to gloat when your 9-0 prediction is proven dramatically incorrect. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marraige because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry."

My guess is 9-0 SCOTUS ruling against the owners.
You think the government has the right to tell people how they can decorate cakes? Seriously? Show me where in the Constitution it says that. If a baker doesn't want to put white and black figures on a cake, that's their own damn business. That's entirely different from refusing to sell a cake to a mixed couple. You do not have the right force people to decorate in ways they don't like. If you don't like the way they decorate, just go somewhere else. The fact that this is going to the SCOTUS is shocking. But I'll be back here to gloat when your 9-0 prediction is proven dramatically incorrect. Twisted Evil


try the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I got 10k WGD that says that at worst it'll be 7-2 against the bakery, but I really believe that it will be 9-0.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marraige because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry."

My guess is 9-0 SCOTUS ruling against the owners.
You think the government has the right to tell people how they can decorate cakes? Seriously? Show me where in the Constitution it says that. If a baker doesn't want to put white and black figures on a cake, that's their own damn business. That's entirely different from refusing to sell a cake to a mixed couple. You do not have the right force people to decorate in ways they don't like. If you don't like the way they decorate, just go somewhere else. The fact that this is going to the SCOTUS is shocking. But I'll be back here to gloat when your 9-0 prediction is proven dramatically incorrect. Twisted Evil


try the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I got 10k WGD that says that at worst it'll be 7-2 against the bakery, but I really believe that it will be 9-0.


Here is some of my "gas" with this. You can refuse to bake a cake that says "Blue lives matter" because police are not a protected group. Its only the 'protected' groups that get this protection.

Which says to me you are giving this group 'special rights" not the same rights as everyone else.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Again I say, change the wording a bit here, and have them say "I won't put a black figure and a white figure on the cake as a couple celebrating a marraige because I believe it immoral for the races to mix and marry."

My guess is 9-0 SCOTUS ruling against the owners.
You think the government has the right to tell people how they can decorate cakes? Seriously? Show me where in the Constitution it says that. If a baker doesn't want to put white and black figures on a cake, that's their own damn business. That's entirely different from refusing to sell a cake to a mixed couple. You do not have the right force people to decorate in ways they don't like. If you don't like the way they decorate, just go somewhere else. The fact that this is going to the SCOTUS is shocking. But I'll be back here to gloat when your 9-0 prediction is proven dramatically incorrect. Twisted Evil


try the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

I got 10k WGD that says that at worst it'll be 7-2 against the bakery, but I really believe that it will be 9-0.


Here is some of my "gas" with this. You can refuse to bake a cake that says "Blue lives matter" because police are not a protected group. Its only the 'protected' groups that get this protection.

Which says to me you are giving this group 'special rights" not the same rights as everyone else.


Let me "what if" for a moment (I know, what if Barbie had a hand grenade)


What if every the majority of business's in a small to medium town got together and decided not to serve a segment of the population because they were the wrong religion, or the wrong color, or the wrong ethnicity. Now these are private business's, so we are not talking about government.

Is this OK? Or does this sound like early 19th and 20th century Jim Crow?

Now I'm not a huge supporter of same gender marriage, but if you are going to operate a business that caters to the general public, then you are probably going to have to deal with persons that you may not care for. Now if it becomes so egregious that you cannot do that, then it's time to get out of the business. Perhaps they should do wedding cakes only through thier church or something like that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally think that businesses should be able to discriminate, but I recognize that it's currently illegal. I don't think we have an absolute right to shop. I think the possibility of shopping is a wonderful opportunity created by someone else's effort, initiative, and investment. Why should I have a right to it? It's not mine.

However, we do have the right to religious beliefs and freedom of expression. I don't think we give those up when we go into business. At the very least, you should be able to pick which goods and services you sell. If I don't want to sell cakes that have two guys on them, that should be my own business. If you don't like my products, you don't have to shop at my store. If you want more variety, well, that's what competition is for.

According to current law, I would agree that a florist can't refuse to sell flowers for a gay wedding. I realize that would be discrimination. But if a baker is willing to sell a cake to a gay couple, but refuses to make it a "gay cake" (i.e. decorating it in a way that makes this clear), he's not discriminating against anyone. Cakes don't have any rights, much less the right to be "gay cakes." Customers being unsatisfied with the quality or decoration of products isn't a civil rights issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:


Here is some of my "gas" with this. You can refuse to bake a cake that says "Blue lives matter" because police are not a protected group. Its only the 'protected' groups that get this protection.

Which says to me you are giving this group 'special rights" not the same rights as everyone else.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

Let me "what if" for a moment (I know, what if Barbie had a hand grenade)


What if every the majority of business's in a small to medium town got together and decided not to serve a segment of the population because they were the wrong religion, or the wrong color, or the wrong ethnicity. Now these are private business's, so we are not talking about government.

Is this OK? Or does this sound like early 19th and 20th century Jim Crow?

Now I'm not a huge supporter of same gender marriage, but if you are going to operate a business that caters to the general public, then you are probably going to have to deal with persons that you may not care for. Now if it becomes so egregious that you cannot do that, then it's time to get out of the business. Perhaps they should do wedding cakes only through thier church or something like that.


What if's arent productive.

What if instead of going to Civil rights court, the Gay couple opened their own bakery and put the others out of business because no one wanted to do business with them anymore? What if the others didn't go out of business but both bakeries ended up with great businesses?

What if the baker caved and made the cake but did a meh or less job on it because he/she wasnt really feeling creative due to the type of decoration? Would the couple then be able to sue because the baker ruined the wedding?

So lets get real. This isnt the 19th or early 20th century Jim Crowe era. It is rare to find that someone wont make a cake for you and very very few towns only have 1 baker. In most of these cases the Gay couple specifically picked those businesses BECAUSE they knew what their stance would be, not because they couldnt find anywhere else to have a cake made.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:


Here is some of my "gas" with this. You can refuse to bake a cake that says "Blue lives matter" because police are not a protected group. Its only the 'protected' groups that get this protection.

Which says to me you are giving this group 'special rights" not the same rights as everyone else.

Rawedge Rim wrote:

Let me "what if" for a moment (I know, what if Barbie had a hand grenade)


What if every the majority of business's in a small to medium town got together and decided not to serve a segment of the population because they were the wrong religion, or the wrong color, or the wrong ethnicity. Now these are private business's, so we are not talking about government.

Is this OK? Or does this sound like early 19th and 20th century Jim Crow?

Now I'm not a huge supporter of same gender marriage, but if you are going to operate a business that caters to the general public, then you are probably going to have to deal with persons that you may not care for. Now if it becomes so egregious that you cannot do that, then it's time to get out of the business. Perhaps they should do wedding cakes only through thier church or something like that.


What if's arent productive.

What if instead of going to Civil rights court, the Gay couple opened their own bakery and put the others out of business because no one wanted to do business with them anymore? What if the others didn't go out of business but both bakeries ended up with great businesses?

What if the baker caved and made the cake but did a meh or less job on it because he/she wasnt really feeling creative due to the type of decoration? Would the couple then be able to sue because the baker ruined the wedding?

So lets get real. This isnt the 19th or early 20th century Jim Crowe era. It is rare to find that someone wont make a cake for you and very very few towns only have 1 baker. In most of these cases the Gay couple specifically picked those businesses BECAUSE they knew what their stance would be, not because they couldnt find anywhere else to have a cake made.


Sounds good in theory, but Jim Crowe laws didn't go off the books until just 50 years ago, and it took another decade of ruthless enforcement to pound the idea in that the government was serious. And still cases come into the courts of people of the wrong ethnicity, or color, or religion, get shafted by lenders, rental agencies, realestate agencies, cops, hotels, etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not wrong RR, but look at the public and legal backlash when those things happen. I'm not going to pretend we've reached a post-racial or post-gay society, but the fact remains that any perceived slight against most groups is dealt with very noisily in the public square.

I don't think that any of us have a problem with a bar having a Ladies Night, or a women-only gym, or with the Congressional Black Caucus. Groups try to self-segregate all the time. So what's wrong with private business doing the same?

I take no issue with a gym turning me away because I have a penis. I take no issue with a bar turning me away because I'm with my opposite-sex partner. I'll happily spend my money where its wanted.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
You're not wrong RR, but look at the public and legal backlash when those things happen. I'm not going to pretend we've reached a post-racial or post-gay society, but the fact remains that any perceived slight against most groups is dealt with very noisily in the public square.

I don't think that any of us have a problem with a bar having a Ladies Night, or a women-only gym, or with the Congressional Black Caucus. Groups try to self-segregate all the time. So what's wrong with private business doing the same?

I take no issue with a gym turning me away because I have a penis. I take no issue with a bar turning me away because I'm with my opposite-sex partner. I'll happily spend my money where its wanted.


I understand what you are saying, even if you are using bad analogies.

Ladies night was developed not to keep guys out, but to get more ladies in so that more guys would show up and spend stupid money on the ladies.

I personally don't have a problem with a single sex gym, but The Good Lord knows that someone is going to, because there is always at least one asshat out there that has to make a scene.

I personally don't care for a CBC, which has openly rejected congressional members of the wrong skin color. Don't think it would go down well if one were to form the Congressional White Caucus, <sarcasm>since that would obviously be racist</sarcasm>
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The comparison's still very valid with Ladies Night. Women pay less for their drinks. What if I'm gay but want the cheaper drinks? Discrimination!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
The comparison's still very valid with Ladies Night. Women pay less for their drinks. What if I'm gay but want the cheaper drinks? Discrimination!


Then get your best drag out Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SCOTUS lifts restrictions on Trump's Travel Ban just happened. What are your thoughts, Hashi?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the one hand, when President Obama instituted similar travel bans a lot of the people complaining now didn't complain then; this just goes to show that the usual "when our guy does it it's okay but when your guy does it, it sucks" applies. We should be giving extra scrutiny to those seeking to immigrate to this country from areas where IS recruitment is relatively high--this isn't racist or xenophobic but prudent, especially since the stated goal of those people is "kill Americans". As I have discussed before, even if the probability of any single individual person being a terrorist is really low, if you let enough people in then the probability that at least one of them will turn out to do something awful becomes likely. It isn't just young males anymore, either--the cutting edge of IS recruitment targets are young women.

Now...stupidly, all the court cases about the travel ban have put it such a delay that if the people who disagreed with it had simply let it get put in place it would have already expired by now. As it is, the next hearing isn't scheduled until 10 October, nearly a month from now. They did not choose their battle very wisely.

On the other hand, a travel ban doesn't stop someone from finding their way here if that is what they really want. Catch a flight to Central America, get a bus ticket to Northern Mexico, then pay a coyote to help you sneak across and you are in. Simple.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed on that score...rules only stop people who actually obey the rules, which, big surprise, are probably not the people you actually need to worry about...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So did you see that the Colorado baker is getting heard, and iirc, the DoJ just sent an amicus brief supporting him. RBG will be apoplectic.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I didn't see that...and I am the one who put the link directly to the SCOTUS website on the first page here.
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