Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Next Phase of Immigration Reform
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 27, 28, 29, 30  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump stated that he plans to phase out DACA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, an Executive Order which Obama put in to place to help prevent deportations of people who were brought here as children. Clearly, given that they were children they had neither choice nor say in the matter and they certainly didn't understand the (il)legality of being brought here. Protests against this choice are underway at this time.

On the one hand I agree that the law is the law and if these people are not here legally then they should be held to the law even if they graduated high school, went to college, graduated, and now hold jobs. On the other hand, since they have graduated high school and/or college and are now holding jobs these are the last people you want to kick out of the country. These are the sort of (mostly) law-abiding, stable, working adults who are trying to build a future for themselves and whatever family they eventually start. Why would you want to get rid of people leading stable lives? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I would just declare them citizens and be done with it.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Orlion
Clairvoyant

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 6492

Thanks: 17
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts

Location: Getting there...
7172 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Dalek1 Member of Linden's Army1 SRD's Green Rock


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Trump stated that he plans to phase out DACA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, an Executive Order which Obama put in to place to help prevent deportations of people who were brought here as children. Clearly, given that they were children they had neither choice nor say in the matter and they certainly didn't understand the (il)legality of being brought here. Protests against this choice are underway at this time.

On the one hand I agree that the law is the law and if these people are not here legally then they should be held to the law even if they graduated high school, went to college, graduated, and now hold jobs. On the other hand, since they have graduated high school and/or college and are now holding jobs these are the last people you want to kick out of the country. These are the sort of (mostly) law-abiding, stable, working adults who are trying to build a future for themselves and whatever family they eventually start. Why would you want to get rid of people leading stable lives? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I would just declare them citizens and be done with it.


What's somewhat upsetting is that Congress had a looong time to make DACA the law of the land, something that the Democrats are scrambling to do right now. This did not have to be the problem it is now.
_________________
'Tis dream to think that Reason can
Govern the reasoning creature, man.
- Herman Melville

I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all!

"All creation is a huge, ornate, imaginary, and unintended fiction; if it could be deciphered it would yield a single shocking word."
-John Crowley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. Immigration has been one of the elephants in the room for well over a decade now yet no one ever did anything about the system.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just days after one Federal Court upheld restrictions on the travel ban, allowing certain people into the country, Justice Kennedy issued a reversal of that ruling, so Trump's travel ban is back in full force as of Monday. The next hearing on this case is not scheduled until 10 October, well past the ban's original 90-day window.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flip, flop, flip, flop...can nobody make up their damn minds? Or at least win a lasting solution?

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, because everyone thinks they can just file a lawsuit to stop whatever law they don't like. Also, the typical mode of thinking these people use is "see? this judge ruled in our favor, so that is the end of it" until the other side appeals, wins their appeal, and they also say "see? this judge ruled in our favor so that is the end of it" until the Supreme Court has to roll its eyes and issue a ruling.

Between Executive Orders from the Executive Branch and temporary injunctions preventing laws from being enacted or enforced from the Judicial Branch, the Legislative is being drowned out as a legitimate branch of government.

This sort of "the law is struck down" followed by "no, your striking down of the law is struck down, so the law is back on the books" is what we call "legislating from the bench" and it is getting out of hand. Sometimes, people don't even wait for a law to be signed before they file suits against it.


_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, the process has to exist, otherwise you'll get laws that are unconstitutional.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It gets worse than that--sometimes we get laws which are unconstitutional even with that system in place. All it takes for an unconstitutional law to remain on the books is a sufficiently convincing legal argument or enough people who are willing to cast a vote to keep it in force.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rawedge Rim
My quest continues

Male
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 4558

Thanks: 24
Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts

Location: Florida
24321 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora2 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 Dalek


PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
It gets worse than that--sometimes we get laws which are unconstitutional even with that system in place. All it takes for an unconstitutional law to remain on the books is a sufficiently convincing legal argument or enough people who are willing to cast a vote to keep it in force.


Hence Roe v. Wade from the 4th amendment (scratching head)
_________________
“One accurate measurement is worth a
thousand expert opinions.”
- Adm. Grace Hopper

"Whenever you dream, you're holding the key, it opens the the door to let you be free" ..RJD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Skyweir
Lord of Light


Joined: 16 Mar 2002
Posts: 6721

Thanks: 4
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

Location: Australia
2710 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Lord's Staff1 Furls Fire


PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What concerns me is the utter lack of policy direction or certainty. Trumps not clear, no one else is clear. Get all your ducks in a line, workshop the problem to find a workable way forward.
_________________
health and healing

'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Hence Roe v. Wade from the 4th amendment (scratching head)


Yeah, that one always confused me as well. Not that I disagree with it, just don't think it needs to rest on such dubious grounds.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
What concerns me is the utter lack of policy direction or certainty. Trumps not clear, no one else is clear. Get all your ducks in a line, workshop the problem to find a workable way forward.


Immigration has been a problem that Congress and Presidents have been avoiding for decades. It should have been addressed during Clinton's two terms and, failing that, it definitely should have been addressed during Bush's two terms--he was governor in Texas before being President so he definitely knew what a problem the system was. Obama tried to deal with it halfheartedly--he implemented DACA while also being the President whose Administration deported more illegal immigrants than the three previous Administrations put together.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he'll probably lose that record now. Very Happy

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Mighara Sovmadhi
A shadow on the heart of the Earth


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 1061

Thanks: 27
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Near where Broken Social Scene is gonna play on October 15th, 2010
9162 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
It gets worse than that--sometimes we get laws which are unconstitutional even with that system in place. All it takes for an unconstitutional law to remain on the books is a sufficiently convincing legal argument or enough people who are willing to cast a vote to keep it in force.


I wonder if this goes to show that the concept of a law being unconstitutional is not well-formed... It reminds me of how easy it is to prooftext from the Bible.

Indeed, if the moral background upon which legal documents (such as the Constitution or SCOTUS rulings thereon) metaphysically depend, is subjective and relative, fluid, then it would be silly to think that America, or any similar country for that matter, actually even has a constitution in the first place. It is not the paper, or the ink on it, from long ago, but the meaning of it; but its meaning is not some once-for-all-time fixed message, but one designed to be amended from the start. So at best, a constitution is a semi-fiction, to say nothing of one so imperfect as the American one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with something like that having the ability to be flexible. I also don't think that the original meaning is as important as the current interpretation.

Things change, our perception of what is right or important also changes.

Of course, that also carries risks.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the one hand, I understand that there are many countries who do not have a written Constitution and they function just fine without it. That means only that the vast majority of citizens like their stable status quo (and there is nothing wrong with a stable status quo, I assure you). On the other hand, without a written set of rules the government can decide tomorrow that whatever it wants to do is legal, even if what they want to do violates that long-standing stable status quo. Without a set of rules that say "the government cannot roll tanks down your street and search your house without a warrant" then the government can roll tanks down your street and search your house without a warrant.

On the other other hand, even with a written set of rules in place if the government decided to use the military to do something which violates those rules it will be able to do so because all its guns give it the authority to violate its own rules. At that point you have a choice: comply, be shot, ...or shoot back.

Anyway...back on topic...California is suing the Trump Administration over the DHS's plan to continue forward with "the wall". The crux of their argument is that the DHS is breaking one set of laws by exempting itself from other Federal laws regarding the environment. The Federal Government often exempts itself from its own rules so this is nothing new.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 53732

Thanks: 71
Thanked 146 Times in 143 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
17362 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I was gonna say, a written set of rules doesn't stop the government from doing what they want... Very Happy

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new travel ban is set to go into effect on 18 October; this new ban is more restrictive than the current one and will be expanded to include Chad, North Korea, and Venezuela. This will, of course, cause a new cycle of lawsuits aiming to stop it but I suppose in the long run it is better to be able to stop potentially bad laws with a quick lawsuit than it would be suffer under some poorly-thought-out piece of crap legislation or executive order.

Eventually, what is going to happen is that a law or EO will be enacted, its opponents will file a suit to get a judge to issue a temporary order preventing implementation of the law/EO...and then the Executive (not necessary Trump, but someone) will proceed to act as if the law or EO is still in force despite the injunction. The Judiciary has no enforcement powers on its own--it has to rely on the Executive for enforcement. If the Executive doesn't enforce a judge's ruling then the judge's ruling is irrelevant.


edit/add

After a lower court had blocked parts of Texas' SB4 (the anti-sanctuary city bill), an appeals court overturned that decision, meaning that SB4 is back in force. Local law enforcement has to comply with ICE requests and municipalities cannot prevent local law enforcement from working with Federal agencies.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 10536

Thanks: 19
Thanked 94 Times in 90 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
58478 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beginning 18 October, the DHS will begin collecting social media content from immigrants--all immigrants, even legal ones--currently living in the United States; the information collected will include screen names, information being shared, and online search results.

This is really dangerous because you *know* that their wide net is going to include not only immigrants but citizens, both natural and naturalized, and will likely capture more than just screen names and search results.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zarathustra
Be True


Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 16764

Thanks: 35
Thanked 170 Times in 163 Posts


14493 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the idea of them being able to know search results, however, if the other info is publicly available, I don't really see a legal problem. It's still ominous, but if you put that stuff out there, you have to realize anyone can have it.

All immigrants are legal, btw. We have a legal system of immigration; there's only one way to become an immigrant. People who skip that process are illegal aliens.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 27, 28, 29, 30  Next
Page 28 of 30

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch