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Gender and Restrooms in School
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I don't think it violates the Constitution to hold that a man (or woman) can be fired due to dressing in a manner inappropriate to the workplace...


Why should it be inappropriate? Unless that person is performing tasks which require certain clothing for safety reasons, can't see that any clothing is inappropriate as long as it performs its function.


Quote:
Lying about your sex, pretending to be another sex and dressing in a way to deceive people about this fact, is not a Constitutionally protected category of behavior that qualifies one for equal protection under the Civil Rights Act on par with racial or sexual minorities. You shouldn't be fired for who you are ... but it's entirely different to be fired for pretending to be something you're not.


If you believe it, you're not lying. And you're not pretending to be something you're not, you're making clear what you (think / believe) you are.

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Av, we can turn your question around, too: Shouldn't the libertarian position be that as long as I'm not hurting anybody (in blackface), I'm free to wear what (makeup) I damn well please?


Yes it should. And you are. Nobody is (or at least should be) protected against being offended. Offending somebody isn't a crime, and nobody has the right not to be offended.

You're not wrong in that if, (like in Cail's example), you are violating an existing policy which you accepted when you started working there that you can be fired. But that doesn't make the policies sensible.

If I turned up at work in a dress nobody would bat an eyelid. (Ok, well, they'd laugh their asses off, but nobody would tell me I wasn't allowed to do it.)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking of jobs where employees deal with customers, with the public. People don't have a right to be shielded from offense, but this doesn't stop them from voting with their wallets and shopping somewhere less offensive. I avoid overtly religious businesses, for instance. If a man in a dress is driving away offended customers, then his attire isn't appropriate for the job. The employer gets to decide what image he wants to present to the public.

As for someone believing he is a woman ... that's his gender identity, not his sex. Your sex doesn't change due to your beliefs. I've read that when someone's gender identity doesn't match their biological sex, it's because something has gone wrong with their development in the womb. It's like a mental disorder. While you shouldn't be fired for having a mental disorder, if your disorder makes itself known in your behavior, and that behavior is deemed detrimental to the company profits, then you should be able to be fired. For instance, a bipolar person off of her meds might be prone to irrational, paranoid outbursts. That's not protected behavior.

Maybe we should be more concerned with treating the mental disorder that is gender identity confusion than coddling them. They have something wrong with them, and no one ever proposes that we help them fix it. We merely enable their confusion.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
As for someone believing he is a woman ... that's his gender identity, not his sex. Your sex doesn't change due to your beliefs. I've read that when someone's gender identity doesn't match their biological sex, it's because something has gone wrong with their development in the womb. It's like a mental disorder. While you shouldn't be fired for having a mental disorder, if your disorder makes itself known in your behavior, and that behavior is deemed detrimental to the company profits, then you should be able to be fired. For instance, a bipolar person off of her meds might be prone to irrational, paranoid outbursts. That's not protected behavior.

Maybe we should be more concerned with treating the mental disorder that is gender identity confusion than coddling them. They have something wrong with them, and no one ever proposes that we help them fix it. We merely enable their confusion.


That will be a very contentious viewpoint to hold and harkens back to the days when the DSM used to classify "homosexuality" as a mental disease.

One the one hand, if your chromosomes contain XY then you are a male and you need to accept that fact rather than trying to transform yourself into a female. Even if you succeed with treatments and surgeries your chromosomes will still be XY and nothing you can do will change that.

On the other hand, if you want to represent yourself as the woman you feel you are then that is your right. However, if I ask you "why do you want to be a woman?" your answer needs to be more concrete than "because that is what I feel that I am", because my next question will be "why do you feel that way?", which isn't as easy to answer. I am not trying to change your mind, only to understand the reasoning and get you to explain to yourself why you want to make the change you want to make. "Because I feel that way" is an insufficient answer. (not directed at you, Z--I am using the generic "you" here)

I haven't looked at my company's dress code policy since the day I got hired here over 6 years ago (and I only glanced at it then).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legally speaking, it would seem that "Because I feel that way" is a sufficient answer.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi, I don't know why it should be controversial, no more than mental illness in general being a legitimate health issue. Resisting the biological facts here seems to reinforce the historical stigmas against mental illness by implicitly accepting a negative value judgment against it. If people with mental illness have nothing to be ashamed of, then there should be no insult or slight perceived in describing gender dysphoria as a mental illness. This isn't a sexual preference, like homosexuality. It's a fundamental confusion about who you are, a disconnect between reality and perception that is just as divergent as the confusions produced by other mental disorders. It's not that they prefer to be a different sex, they feel like they are a different sex.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is controversial only because far too many people go through life these days waving their fractured egos and victim mentalities as if they were flags or badges of honor. To these people, anything which infringes on their *feelings* is "controversial", to which they usually run for a convenient label to try and apply to whomever is saying something with which they disagree. They can't tell you *why* they feel the way they do, the fact that they feel that way is supposed to suffice.

That being said, as Fist and Faith notes "because I feel that way" might suffice for a legal answer, but if a person having gender identity difficulties really wants to understand themselves then "because I feel that way" does *not* suffice. It certainly won't be a sufficient answer to the doctors with whom they are seeking medical and/or surgical answers to their dilemmas.

If everyone went around doing what they *felt* like doing then not only would the world would be a significantly shittier place than it already is from time to time but it would be that way *most* of the time. "Feelings" should never be the primary deciding factor for one's actions.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as I remember it, there are a number of drugs and medical treatments that work differently on between the two genders. Wonder how that plays out on some dude who insists he's a woman, and a treatment regiment doesn't go as well as planned because of the genetic differences between the genders.

Not to mention that unless they remove the prostate gland when they do "gender reassignment" Throwup , at some point this is gonna become an issue to the former Mr. Man.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


On the other hand, if you want to represent yourself as the woman you feel you are then that is your right. However, if I ask you "why do you want to be a woman?" your answer needs to be more concrete than "because that is what I feel that I am", because my next question will be "why do you feel that way?", which isn't as easy to answer. I am not trying to change your mind, only to understand the reasoning and get you to explain to yourself why you want to make the change you want to make.


That seems like a legitimate approach to me, and no doubt in the therapy / etc. that (surely) accompanies and precedes the transition, the question is one that is asked.

Certainly actually transitioning is not as simple as walking into a hospital and demanding surgery.

Of course, as you point out, it's a very hard question to answer, and not only in this context either, but for pretty much anything that provokes emotion.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people, even ones who are straight/hetero and have no gender or sexual preference qualms, can't answer basic questions such as "*why* did you choose to do x?" because they don't put any thought into their actions, either, instead choosing to act based only on "feeling", "whimsy", or "boredom".
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to fit the notion of insanity to me. If, while naked, one looks down and hanging from the front of their groin is a penis backed by a scrotum, then the odds approach 100% that one is biologically and genetically a male.

If one is naked, and there is no penis or scrotum, but there is a vagina somewhere down there, then the odds are just under 100% that one is biologically and genetically female. (there is an super extremely rare condition where outwardly the person looks like a female down to the exterior appearance of the the genetalia, but is actually male. Something like less than 200 on earth.)

And of course I'm leaving out hermaphrodites , as they have both sets of genitals.

No amount of "feeling" will change this reality. And frankly sex change operations are essentially "plastic surgury". Doesn't change the genes, and the "changed" person cannot biologically fulfill the reproductive part of the new "gender".
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hormones to begin the process of transitioning from male to female can be prescribed without any therapy. I know this from someone I know very well. And I assume we've all heard that you must live as a woman - clothing and whatever else - for a year before they will perform the surgery. That story has been around for decades, and what I've googled suggests it's true. They want to make sure you're sure before they bother. But I'm not sure a doctor is not allowed to do it any time.

Googling gives many sites that say psychological counseling is recommended. I haven't seen one that says it's required. As wiki says:. "Treatment of gender dysphoria does not involve attempting to correct the patient's gender identity, but to help the patient adapt." AFAICT, nobody has to justify it to, or convince, anybody - not even themselves - of anything.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it commonly considered appropriate to "correct" one's sex through drugs and surgery, but it's controversial to suggest correcting one's gender identity?* It's as we've decided as a society that only the sex is incorrect, rather than a mismatch between the two. I'm not sure why they aren't simply viewed as the same fact seen from two sides. Perhaps it's because society largely dealt with homosexuality first, prior to the transgender debate. Maybe that debate conditioned us to the idea that what people feel isn't wrong (morally). But that's different from saying what you feel isn't biologically accurate. Gender dysphoria is by definition an inaccurate impression of one's gender relative to one's sex. That's the whole reason they feel conflicted. It's not that society won't let them be who they are, their own bodies don't let them be who they "are" (hence the surgery).

It is a compassionate impulse either way to suggest avenues of resolving that conflict. I've read that many who undergo the surgery end up regretting it. Some even have it reversed. Many commit suicide. Clearly, the idea that it's their sex that must be fixed hasn't led to therapeutic, efficacious results (from either the suffering individuals or society's acceptance). This should be an entirely separate question from the social debate, but we keep ourselves from asking these medical questions by limiting our starting point with this social bias. In this case, it is not wrong (morally) to say that how someone feels is wrong (biologically).

*(perhaps through psychotropic drugs and/or therapy)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
AFAICT, nobody has to justify it to, or convince, anybody - not even themselves - of anything.


This is precisely what is wrong with so many people these days, and I mean everyone, not just those who are trans and/or uncertain of their sexual orientation. No one feels the need to justify their actions even to themselves, much less to anyone else. Everyone has opted to follow whatever course of action pops into their head, in many instances deciding that the consequences be damned.

I am not saying that anyone has to have anyone else's approval, mind you, but if you cannot even look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself why you are doing something then that should be your clue that you shouldn't be doing it.

It looks like the Shadows won this time around.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Why is it commonly considered appropriate to "correct" one's sex through drugs and surgery, but it's controversial to suggest correcting one's gender identity.
Who cares that it's controversial? Suggest away!

But what you're suggesting isn't going to happen any time soon. There is a long history of treating people against their will. Sometimes using horrific methods. But even without those methods, it's still against their will. The pendulum has swung the other way.


Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
AFAICT, nobody has to justify it to, or convince, anybody - not even themselves - of anything.


This is precisely what is wrong with so many people these days, and I mean everyone, not just those who are trans and/or uncertain of their sexual orientation. No one feels the need to justify their actions even to themselves, much less to anyone else. Everyone has opted to follow whatever course of action pops into their head, in many instances deciding that the consequences be damned.

I am not saying that anyone has to have anyone else's approval, mind you, but if you cannot even look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself why you are doing something then that should be your clue that you shouldn't be doing it.

It looks like the Shadows won this time around.
At what point in history was it ever otherwise? Atrocities have always been committed, and there is never a good reason for such things. Greed, fear, lust, whatever. This is precisely what's wrong with human nature.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean it should be against their will. I meant it might be a more reasonable and therapeutic route of treatment besides mutilating themselves in surgery.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

I've read that many who undergo the surgery end up regretting it. Some even have it reversed. Many commit suicide. Clearly, the idea that it's their sex that must be fixed hasn't led to therapeutic, efficacious results (from either the suffering individuals or society's acceptance).


Society's acceptance is the key point here. We still have a long way to go. It's certainly 'easier' to go through life with the gender you were assigned at birth. It's easier to get a job. You're less likely to be murdered because your existence has offended someone. Less likely to be disowned by your family. Regret is usually not at a personal level. It has more to do with pressure from society.

If I had to use one word to describe most of the trans people I know, it would be 'lonely'. They've achieved peace between body and mind, but good luck finding a meaningful relationship when the dating scene can be a literal deathtrap.

Zarathustra wrote:
Why is it commonly considered appropriate to "correct" one's sex through drugs and surgery, but it's controversial to suggest correcting one's gender identity.*

*(perhaps through psychotropic drugs and/or therapy)


Because it doesn't work.


Rawedge Rim wrote:


No amount of "feeling" will change this reality. And frankly sex change operations are essentially "plastic surgury". Doesn't change the genes, and the "changed" person cannot biologically fulfill the reproductive part of the new "gender".


It's more than plastic surgery. Hormones are serious business.

We're all just complicated masses of chemicals. It's really pretty amazing that so many of us turn out 'normal'.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever "normal" means anyway.

I'm minded of an argument Brinn once made in relation to something else, but which adapted for this context, could be rendered as "If we support the right of people to alter their consciousness at will, why not their bodies?"

At the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned, it's your body and your mind. As long as you're not harming somebody else, you can do whatever you want with it, and I don't have the right to tell you any different.

If it makes you feel better, if it means you'll be at peace with yourself, then who are any of us to stand in their way?

Whatever gets you through the day.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

This is precisely what is wrong with so many people these days, and I mean everyone, not just those who are trans and/or uncertain of their sexual orientation. No one feels the need to justify their actions even to themselves, much less to anyone else. Everyone has opted to follow whatever course of action pops into their head, in many instances deciding that the consequences be damned.
At what point in history was it ever otherwise? Atrocities have always been committed, and there is never a good reason for such things. Greed, fear, lust, whatever. This is precisely what's wrong with human nature.


It hasn't ever been different, that much is definitely true. The only differences between "now" and "back then" (whenever that is) are 1) there are more of us now than there has been before, 2) more of us are more willing to throw caution to the wind and do something stupid, usually filming ourselves while doing it, and 3) those videos inspire copycats to push the envelope.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, I blame the damn hippies. The, "if it feels good, do it" mentality is all well and good right up to the point that you demand others play along. The libertarian mindset allows all sorts of behavior as long as it doesn't impact or harm others, and here we find our line.

Does it impact or harm us if someone who is clearly a man in a dress uses the women's bathroom? Does it harm that man in a dress to demand that he uses a bathroom designated for people with penises? We need to draw a line somewhere, and no matter where it's drawn, someone is going to be hurt. And I believe that - for now - we need to follow Spock's Directive; the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorus wrote:
Society's acceptance is the key point here.
I don't think it's the "key point," but I'll acknowledge that it's important. Primarily, fixing the original problem is the key point. But we can't really do that if society won't accept that the problem is larger than mere acceptance (ironically). For instance, political correctness keeps people from accepting that this is a legitimate mental health issue. Naming it a mental health issue doesn't mean we don't accept it. It's just a correct diagnosis.

Check this out:

Quote:
Fair-minded individuals would see the cumulative effect of the findings-20 percent have [post-surgery] regret, 41 percent attempt suicide, 90 percent have a "significant form of psychopathology", 61 percent also have other psychiatric disorders and illnesses, 50 percent had depressive symptoms, 40 percent showed symptoms of anxiety-and be troubled by the push to surgery and transition as the first course of treatment for transgenders.

Yet the media is silent. It's so much easier to deliver the LGBT talking point than to dig into the science.


We have to realize that feeling like you're a woman in a man's body is sufficient to cause mental disorders in itself, aside from society's "acceptance." It's an alienation from oneself that no amount of tolerance could correct. We could be 100% supportive of their plight, and yet their plight would still remain. It's not caused by society, but rather something going wrong in the womb. To pretend that all their issues would go away if society just accepted them is pie-in-the-sky bullshit. It's the same wishful thinking present in so many progressive "solutions" (like thinking that the only problem black people face is the racism of white people, ignoring the fact that other black people are the biggest threat to blacks).

Sorus wrote:
We still have a long way to go. It's certainly 'easier' to go through life with the gender you were assigned at birth.
You're not "assigned" a gender at birth. Your gender identity is set biologically. In the vast majority of cases--99.4%--nature sets this to match your biological sex when everything goes right. So parents can be forgiven for assuming that a boy is actually a boy, since this is how it normally works, nearly 100% of the time.

Sorus wrote:
Regret is usually not at a personal level. It has more to do with pressure from society.
Not according to actual transgenders. From the same link as above:

Quote:

My life story and the stories of those who contact me speak of regret over transitioning. Often, the stories include attempted suicide or suicide ideation.

I was a 4 year old trans-kid who grew up with gender confusion and underwent gender reassignment surgery at age 42. I lived for 8 years as a so-called trans-female named Laura Jensen. But no matter how feminine I appeared, like all transgenders, I was just a man in a dress. I was unhappy, regretful of having transitioned and I attempted suicide. Gender surgery is not effective treatment for depression, anxiety or mental disorders.


Sorus wrote:
Because it doesn't work.

Mental illness is treatable. I know this from personal experience. My wife was diagnosed bipolar last year. Her illness is SEVERE. And yet, with the right medication, she lives a normal life. Perhaps we haven't yet developed a treatment for gender dysphoria because we don't allow ourselves to admit that it needs to be treated like any other mental illness.

Everyone interested in this topic should check out http://www.sexchangeregret.com/. There you will find numerous articles written by doctors, psychiatrists, and transgenders (rather than mere political activists) such as these:

I'm a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.
Doctors Admit They Don't Know Which Kids Should Gender Transition But Do It To Them Anyway
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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