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How Does Evolution Produce Consciousnes/Reason?
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Fist and Faith
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
[[I maintain my objections to the "can't be reduced to physics" issue, for reasons stated elsewhere, and others not. But I'll let that horse stay dead and unbeaten for now]].
I haven't seen your objections. But I'm not convinced there is any cbrtp. I'm willing to call it that, because it's not properties we have any understanding of. Not even a hint. But maybe it really is cbrtp. If we can figure out what the least bit of it is, maybe we can figure out how it happens. There's no chance of figuring it out by studying our own brains. "If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't." But if we study a brain that's simple enough that we can understand it, and it has the least bit of cbrtp, maybe we can figure out what's going on. Does a worm have it? If it does, maybe it's simple enough to figure out. Problem is, we can't figure out if a worm has it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
"If the human brain were so simple that we could understand it, we would be so simple that we couldn't."


Hee...so...
"If the human brain were so complex we couldn't understand it, we'd be so complex we could."

Obviously it's a hard problem. It's actually CALLED that in certain circles.

But I think we have big hints/clues...and much of it centers around the shift/distinction between stimulus/response/instinct and abstraction/analogy/thought as "sets." [[overlapping with a test/set/field of presentation/"experience"---representation/"memory"---creation/"comprehension"...kinda/sorta. I want to make that more concrete, but words are mistaken when definite, and slippery when not]].

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, again, I wonder if there can be any amount of cbrtp without any consciousness. Can it be that a primitive brain can gain such a thing, react to it out of nothing but reflex, and increase its chances of survival and procreation?

Or is cbrtp useless (assuming it's possible) without an awareness of it? The reaction would be to only the brain state, and not to the mental state, since there is no consciousness to react to the mental states. So the cbrtp would be of no value.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alrighty then! I'll carry on. And I apologise for any parts that sound like gibberish. I know what I mean, but might not be expressing it very well. Also apologies for what is surely repeating things that have been said many many times over the centuries. But it's all new to me!

Obviously, there is interaction between brain and mind. The mind (presumably) arises from, would not exist without, and partially controls, the brain.

But the brain is *ahem* unaware of the connection, or even of the mind's existence. It is unaware. I would not think the option of some form of cbrtp arising before consciousness, and still being able to somehow increase the odds of survival and procreation, is possible. The brain, which is reducible to physics, does not perceive that which cbrtp.

So consciousness, cbrtp awareness, cannot come second. BUT, it can't come first, either. Because we are not conscious of the interactions of particles. We are not conscious of brain states. We are conscious of mind states. We do not have awareness of photons hitting retina; causing an ion of blah blah blah; etc etc. We are aware of vision. I don't see how there can be consciousness without something to be conscious of. And, if the things to be conscious of did not come first, then they either came at the same time, or they are the same thing.

Are we conscious of vision; or is vision part of our consciousness? Are we aware of flavor; or is flavor part of our consciousness?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh...Two different topigraphs.
First [the tangential one]...why is NOT being reduced to physics so important?
As things stand, there is no evidence that consciousness is disconnected from physics.
At best there is only a lack of knowledge of the connection/rules/process.
There is evidence...though we only have the parochial example of Earth life...that consciousness is connected to the physical---brain, or brain-like structures.

I mean---why can't and why reduced? Why not must and expanded/encompassed?

Imagine..."You" are "there"...in a place where on instant there is no universe, the next there is.
It seems to me, that that precisely means there is no physics,[or at least no physics like our physics] then there is. Everything exists BECAUSE our particular physics is instantiated. If anything, it's more true that physics can't be reduced to our universe.

Second, on what I think is the thing you really want to talk about in that last...
We're at emergent properties, I think. Consciousness MUST come second.
In that first instant, there are no stars---because there is no hydrogen, because there are no protons, neutrons, or electrons, because it's too damn hot and all the forces act exactly alike. But stars are IMPLICIT, though non-existent. Things have to cool, space has to grow, the forces have to break apart, stars have to collapse and explode to create and spread heavy elements, chemistry happens, life happens, brains happen, consciousness happens. Each emerges, different from, but dependent upon the previous.

Heh, circling back to the tangent...Because of Vraith's Law: Everything is expanded from physics.
We may not understand it yet---or, if the strict determinist-related schools are right we DO understand a lot of it, in "rough draft" form, we just don't like the answer---but barring catastrophe, we'll get there or at least always converge towards it.

To me, saying "Can't be reduced to physics" is a synonym for "Must be reduced to magic."
And I can't abide that.
If the root, the source, the foundation is magic, then everything is magic. But magic is, by definition, incomprehensible. So everything---every single thing, no matter how small, no matter how true or factual in appearance---is incomprehensible.
Mystery...reach exceeding grasp...is one thing. A marvelous thing.
Magic just means we think we're humans in a garden, but we're really just flies eating crap.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
To me, saying "Can't be reduced to physics" is a synonym for "Must be reduced to magic."
Why do things have to be reduced to anything? What if properties emerge at "higher" levels that disappear on a purely physical analysis?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Vraith wrote:
To me, saying "Can't be reduced to physics" is a synonym for "Must be reduced to magic."
Why do things have to be reduced to anything? What if properties emerge at "higher" levels that disappear on a purely physical analysis?


Heh...that's a line from my song. Smile Exactly my point. Reduction is a necessary step very often to learn/critique/root out. But is not enough---stealing a thought from Motorcycle Maintenance---reduction can go deep, but it is a narrow channel. Breadth also exists.
Analogically Wink that disappearance resembles much of what we see between the quantum and the macro.

Although I'd assume that we will discover/build the rules/mechanisms to reveal that invisibility. That's basically what things like the LHC, for example, do.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Heh...Two different topigraphs.
First [the tangential one]...why is NOT being reduced to physics so important?
As things stand, there is no evidence that consciousness is disconnected from physics.
At best there is only a lack of knowledge of the connection/rules/process.
There is evidence...though we only have the parochial example of Earth life...that consciousness is connected to the physical---brain, or brain-like structures.

As I've said, I'm not actually convinced it cbrtp. I'm thinking that, if we could figure out what the least amount of consciousness is, and study the critter that has it, we would have a better chance of finding the mechanism than we have studying our more complex consciousness.

But maybe not. Maybe consciousness truly cbrtp. We know an awful lot about things, and can detect things we don't really know anything about. Yet we can't catch even the faintest glimpse of a mechanism or particle, and can't come up with a decent theory about it. How freakin' incredible would it be if something in this universe isn't made of its substance, and doesn't follow its routes?!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the phenomenon of consciousness may one day be reduced to physics, at least a kind of physics that we currently don't have. However I do not believe that the content of consciousness will ever be reduced to physics. Using an example I have mentioned before, I believe it is like the content of a television broadcast. The content comes from the creative minds of people who develop that content, whereas it is carried by a signal that is easily reduceable to physics. Thus, we have a common example where the content and the carrier signal are two separate orders of reality. It is easy to think that the content is entirely contained in the shape and nature of the broadcast signal, however, if we were to reduce it to nothing else but this, we would be missing the human, creative nature of that content
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, either a branch of physics that we can't currently conceive of, or, as you've said, an entirely different aspect of reality that we can't currently conceive of. I was actually waiting for someone to smack me for saying it could be of something other than the substance and rules ("rules", not "routes") of the universe. If it's part of the universe...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps consciousness is no mystery at all. How about consciousness as an intrinsic part of any life. It's mind - look at a dog, a horse or a cat .. they possess consciousness as part of being sentient. After all mental prowess is vital to survival in all beings. Without sentience how can any life form navigate through the challenges of life, their environments etc.

Humans always seek a higher purpose for their capabilities. As a species we possess consciousness and opposable thumbs. These two attributes alone have enabled humans to dominate the natural world.

Create fire 🔥, seek shelter from inclement conditions (like many other species do), develop tools, raise food & crops, build shelters, invent new and more efficient means of living and surviving.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir, I see what you're saying. Good points. However, I think that there's still plenty of mystery to it. Consciousness isn't required to do so many things. You can drive down the interstate, have a conversation with a friend, and realize miles later that you have no memory of the road. We operate on habit, "autopilot," and instinct. I think animal operate on it even more. And of course there are things like sleepwalking where people do complex tasks without being fully conscious. So nature does supply organisms with complex behavior without the need for consciousness.
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Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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