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Catalonian Independence
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Hashi Lebwohl
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that so many times democracy devolves into the tyranny of the minority is because people don't vote. The referendum they held back in early October had--presuming I recall correctly--about 47% turnout (which is actually pretty good). Of those, 98% voted for independence, so the desire for independence exists in only about half the people. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is this: every person who did not vote at all actually voted for independence. Their silence allowed the 98% of the 47% to win.

On a somewhat related topic, early voting will be taking place at my polling location until 7pm today (there are State measures and some city ordinances up for vote next Tuesday). Turnout for off-year elections hovers around 15%, so my vote will actually count as if it were about 6 votes since the other 85% won't bother.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you deserve to have your six times multiplied say in the way things are run Hashi. I have little patience with the indolence behind most peoples failure to vote: they forfeit their right to have a say or complain about the future policies enacted on their behalf.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must always dispute that statement.

The logic seems indisputable to me:

By voting, (participating in the democratic process) you implicitly agree to abide by the outcome of an election, regardless of whether that outcome is in your favour or not.

Therefore it's if you do vote that you should forfeit any right to complain, since by participating you agree that the outcome will be the agreed upon one by virtue of majority.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the (democratic at least) social contract though, is it not Av? We agree by consensus, to accept the general result and abide with it until the next opportunity for changing it (which in turn, it is agreed will be given us) presents itself. Anything else is either anarchy or revolution in the making. In so doing we show at least the humility of being prepared to accept the 'wisdom of the masses' against our own personal view.

(Caveat; I worded my post carefully to exclude those who do not vote as a protest against the position of all the positions on offer, but who find no box in which such a view can be expressed {possibly because if such a situation pertains then it behoves one to stand up and present to the public the alternative which one would propose rather than just nihilisticly rejecting that which is on offer}).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, yes, I did note the qualification in your original post. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After having placed several leaders of Catalonia in jail for their part in the independence movement, 750,000 protesters hit the streets calling for their leaders to be released. This argument is not going to be solved quickly or quietly at this point.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly there has been claims hat the grubby fingers of Russian undercover activities were at work in facilitating the referendum result in Catalonia; this claim coming hard on the heels of the same being made in respect of the Brexit one in the UK. Is this just becoming the go to excuse for any result that goes against the establishment norm, or is there really something behind it? It appears PM May may think so - yesterday she issued a statement directed at Putin saying that the UK would not tolerate any interference in it's democratic procecees by outside sources.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posturing.

See they've called a regional election and the pres is calling on Catalonians to defeat the separatists at the polls... Very Happy

(Maybe they should just have let the referendum go ahead legitimately...)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
Interestingly there has been claims hat the grubby fingers of Russian undercover activities were at work in facilitating the referendum result in Catalonia; this claim coming hard on the heels of the same being made in respect of the Brexit one in the UK. Is this just becoming the go to excuse for any result that goes against the establishment norm, or is there really something behind it? It appears PM May may think so - yesterday she issued a statement directed at Putin saying that the UK would not tolerate any interference in it's democratic procecees by outside sources.


It is the latest excuse, that's all--if something happens that you did not expect about an election just blame Russia.

There is a thread in the Loresraat about dumb conspiracy theories. Well, this is another one--"Russia meddled in our election".

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Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has that whiff about it Hashi, but having said that the UK press is treating it seriously.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno why it is assumed to be so unlikely...the US has been meddling in other countries elections for decades. Not impossible that Russia should give it a go. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently one woman who ran a very funny and pertinent Twitter commentary, we who built up a strong following with her political (and by no means non partisan) commentary turned out to be non existent. She was in fact the creation of a Russian state office who specialise in such covert practices and to whom some three hundred plus sites have been traced.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, our own politics are also filled with fake accounts and bots etc. They're not usually very good at it though.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or perhaps you only spot the ones that are not very well done........

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, this is possible, although the ones that are well done are usually actually real people. There's actually a group here that keeps track of all the fake accounts and what they tweet etc. to try and manipulate public opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on track I read that the Catalonian leader in exile has hinted that there are possibly solutions that fall short of complete independence that would satisfy those who voted for it in the recent referendum - some kind of autonomous region status - which is being seen as a possible chink of light at the end of the tunnel.
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'Then let it end.'

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh, dind't they have something like that in the first place? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes indeed - I'm thinking the guys who stirred this up are now looking for a way to diffuse the situation; maybe they don't like Belgian food? Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catalonian independence will only happen when the Spain's government allows it. Aside from a violence civil war those people are
going to stay a part of Spain. And even a civil war may not do it.
You destroy 50% of the land and eject people from their homes then your chances of maintaining control goes up. Syria is an example.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree Ur-Dead, the Spanish would never wear it even if a majority of Catalans were in favour of it, let alone a less than half percentage.
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'Then let it end.'

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