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The Absence of The Creator in The Last Chrons
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Mighara Sovmadhi
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Wosbald, that gives us an ever deeper level of interpretation, or another very deep one...

Basically, Life and Death aren't just mechanics for the construction of organic structure but also organic activity. The dynamics of meaningful coincidences, as manifests in the divine synchronicity of perhaps especially the Last Chronicles (the very mystical level of detail that rides across so many of its pages in such a sterling way), are some of the stuff of this life, and by bringing Covenant back to Life, Linden symbolically violates the meaning of his Death, or at least seems to--though we later find that he consented to this alteration in advance, as the Timewarden, who blames even himself first for her fall, so to say--amidst that perhaps most coincident scene of all in the Last (or any of the) Chronicles, the climax of FR.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Wosbald, I read Z's reply to what you said, so I thought about this...

Z says the Creator problem is basically dismissed because SRD wants to emphasize thought that isn't theistic or whatever. Or, this is my gloss of what he says. But anyway, it doesn't seem true, does it? For the Despiser is there right through to the end, and the Despiser is, in fact, the God of the Land. So God never vanishes from the story, does he? Or, as Z said in this thread, it seems, if the Despiser is internalized, then so is the Creator, and this represents the final internalization of theistic concepts (as examples of human meaning first, instead of divinely-revealed meaning first? if that were the desired conclusion... which in a story obsessed with the value of forests I don't think is quite the case).

EDIT: Suppose the beggar had multiple-personality/dissociative(sp.?)-identity disorder, plus schizophrenia [EDIT 2: people having mental illnesses of various kinds does seem to be a sort of theme in the IRL sections...]. Then in the interworld void, when the Despiser talks to Covenant, so is the "beggar" talking to him, and the same is happening when the Creator is talking to him, and so on. So in all the scenes in the Last Chronicles where the Despiser is present, so is the Creator ("somehow"?).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Err, I guess one way we could just approach this is very directly and simply by saying we don't see or hear from him because he, well... died? Is it so strange the last time he's directly involved in the book is the point the beggar died?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He talked to TC once and it was a gamble by his own account.
He talked the Linden once and knew it was a gamble.
He didn't say anything to anybody because that would mean that a new
Land's savior would be created and SRD wanted the story to have an end.
So use the last two main characters and let them work it out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Gradual Interview was wrote:
There seems to be a lot of themes of 'shared identity' throughout the series -- "You are the white gold"; Foul is Covenant's dark side, the side that despises himself. Foul is also the "brother" of the Creator. So, in a sense, they are all really One.
    If anything, the tradition I was drawing on was Christian (because of my background in fundamentalist Christianity, not because I am in any useful sense a believer): the Trinity, God in Three Persons. Except I obviously wasn't thinking of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. More like Creator, Destroyer, and Holy Ghost (wild magic). Or Creator, Destroyer, and--what shall we call Covenant as the protagonist of the drama?--Acolyte. But you're quite right about the "shared identity" theme. I was explicitly thinking of the Creator, the Despiser, and wild magic as aspects of Covenant himself.

I don't think you can separate Donaldson's notion of "Trinity" from the question of the disappearance of the old man.

Covenant isn't the Creator, just like he isn't the Despiser. At least, not at the start. But as the story progresses, these disparate aspects become one, which is the final destination in his "quest to become whole". Covenant's union with Lord Foul is rather explicit in the text, but with the Creator is less so. Nevertheless we must trust it's there. Trusting, we see the clues. The Creator is not a present being that Covenant merges with, rather the Creator is a responsibility which Covenant learns to accept. He is the Creator's "Acolyte" - his "follower".

So, at a certain point, when the Creator appears in the story, it is Covenant whom we see before us. Not the old man. And he DID appear to Jeremiah before he came to the Land ... just not the same way. Different Creator, different methods. THIS Creator cares about whom he chooses.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got a question..
Since Thomas, Linden and Jerry reconstructed the world. The creator's world no longer exists. It's the groups hand that remade it. Yet they allowed themselves to touch the land.

Could it be that the Acolyte was the original creator?
Since he had his creation unmade and then remade can he now enter the land?
Maybe that why Thomas and group when to follow the Acolyte.
They knew he was the creator.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting question. Would have to re-read that TLD ending to see if there are crumbs to support that, Certainly a great prompt for further fan-fic, for those so inclined.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Creator dwelled outside the Arch of Time. Covenant and his family dwell within. Therein lies all the difference.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was the Arch destroyed and then remade? SWMNBN escaped.
So the Arch must have crumbled. Must have been reconstructed to hold the new framework. This could have
allowed the creator in.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly, the Arch did fall, and was rebuilt. She got out while the getting was good.

Since She was the Creator's mate prior to her seduction and fall, I prefer to think they were reunited. As eternal beings, surely they would want to be outside the rebuilt Arch...and that Arch must be assumed to be as strong as the original, lest Four ever overcome his unification with Covenant and escape. Foul outside the Arch would be bad news, as Creator and/or She within it would be.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Clearly, the Arch did fall, and was rebuilt. She got out while the getting was good.

Since She was the Creator's mate prior to her seduction and fall, I prefer to think they were reunited. As eternal beings, surely they would want to be outside the rebuilt Arch...and that Arch must be assumed to be as strong as the original, lest Four ever overcome his unification with Covenant and escape. Foul outside the Arch would be bad news, as Creator and/or She within it would be.


Debate this...

As eternal beings, surely they would want to be outside the rebuilt Arch...and that Arch must be assumed to be as strong as the original


Arch rebuilt - check
Arch as strong as the old one - check

The arch was rebuilt from the old arch. Or at least glued back together.
The old arch was created by the creator.
The creator knew.. lets say the "tech specs" of the arch.
The creator could not reach through the old arch because it may have been
attuned to his being. If he puts his power into the arch to affect the Land
it would unravel. Foul gets released... bad juju.
But like said.. Group rebuilt the world and arch from the broken parts.
Ever put a jigsaw puzzle back together after somebody first put it together and then broke it apart and jumbled the pieces for you to do?
It the same pieces and they will fit together again but not as solidly as it was
done the first time. There is wear and tear.. A slight bit of matter is bent or missing from the piece(s). They fit together and the overall picture is there.
But it is different than when the first person assembled it.
So when TC, Linden and Jeremiah reassembled the world and arch they became it's creators. They did a great bangup job and it was almost like new
or the original. They allowed themselves to remain in the land and may be that if they tried to leave they can't or they destroy the arch. Sort of
in reverse of the original arch.
The arch was the last thing created. It was the framework in which the world
is held. (I think it was in LFB that the creation is told.. Foul is in the world but the arch is not there until the creator puts it in and seals Foul in)
The creator who knew how the arch was created could see the bends or missing material withing the arch. Like Roger and the croyel he can slip thru the cracks and project an avatar of himself within the land.
That avatar could have been the acolyte.
So ... does this make sense?

And the creator appears in the last chronicles.. In reverse to the first two.
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