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President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital Reply with quote

I'm sure you have seen this in the news. Personally I think this is a long time coming. Congress approved this two decades ago and every President since has not had the balls to move forward with it.

Of course every country says.... oh bad idea, it will just keep Israel and Palestine from confirming a two state area. However its clear that isnt going to happen. Palestine will never recognize Israel in any of that area and Israel is never going to give the land back. This only recognizes what is reality. Anything else is wishful thinking.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh...Israel doesn't want Palestine to recognise them. It's long been their policy to make life so unbearable for them that they just give up and go away.

There are too many people on both sides who prefer there to be a conflict I think.

This...it's just cosmetic...for the US anyway. Maybe Trump playing to his base, I dunno.

Wasn't the point in the past to keep Jerusalem more neutral given its importance to multiple religions?

So much for that I guess...

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree; the last thing the situation in the Middle East needs is Trump poking it with a blunt stick to no discernible purpose. The whole situation is such a mess already that any outside interjection can only serve to inflame it. Leave well alone Trump and concentrate on your election promise to stop meddling in other people's affairs.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too late.

Hamas is now calling for another intifada and claiming that the declaration has killed the peace process.

Meh.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rest of the world is unbelievably anti-Semitic, and anti-Israel. Screw 'em. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and it has been for 3,000 years. The only state that has a semi-legitimate claim to it is Jordan, who lost Jerusalem after they foolishly invaded Israel.

We're recognizing reality, the rest of the world can stuff it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

AB Tomasi urges U.S. rethink on Jerusalem as Israeli capital

Quote:

Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, former Vatican envoy to the United Nations in Geneva - EPA


(Vatican Radio) Ahead of an expected decision by the U.S President on Wednesday to recognize Jerusalem as the new Israeli capital, a top Vatican official said the move will add "fuel to the fire" of conflict and instability across the Middle East.

Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, former Vatican envoy to the U.N. in Geneva, said any move away from the Status Quo in Jerusalem "could have unforeseen consequences". He added: "My prayer is that […] the recognised neutral status of Jerusalem, accessible for the three religions, Christian, Jewish and Muslim, will continue to be so".

[…]

Archbishop Tomasi said the planned move "is certainly not a gesture of openness for dialogue". While he said it was difficult to predict the consequences, he said he feared "we will continue to see this tragedy of violence, destruction" and the forced movement of refugees, adding that "simple people, normal families will pay the highest price".

The former Holy See ambassador, who currently serves as advisor to the Vatican's office for Integral Human Development, endorsed the appeal made by Pope Francis earlier on Wednesday to maintain the Status Quo of Jerusalem.

He noted that in the United States the pope's voice "is highly respected and listened to by a lot of people, so even for a simple political calculation, it would be useful for everybody to listen to the invitation the pope directs to all parties concerned".

[…]

He added that Israel must not allow its own interests to "disrupt what the UN has repeated many times, and what has also been the logical and coherent position of the Holy See for all the past decades".

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, there is no such country as Palestine, no matter how badly many people want to think that it exists. The Palestinian Government in Exile is like the Republic of Texas--they are living in the past.

The real problem the Palestinian people face is not just that Israel abuses them from time to time but also that no other Arab/Muslim nations wants them, either. The last time the Arab nations banded together to help the Palestinians they got their asses handed to them. This also shows us an instance where the enemy of my enemy (Iran despises Israel and has made its desire to destroy Israel clear in the past) is not necessarily my friend (Iran doesn't care about the Palestinian people at all).

As noted, our government had already recognized Jerusalem as the capital years ago but Presidents since then have simply been delaying moving the embassy because, truthfully, they were chickenshit cowards afraid to commit to a course of action.

Moving an embassy is a very non-violent, standard thing which countries do from time to time. Groups or individuals advocating a violent reaction to declaring Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and moving the embassy from Tel Aviv are proving that their non-violent faces are thin masks easily discarded at a moment's notice the instant something doesn't go the way they want it to. What that means is that those people believe that violence is the only answer to a problem and that they are only pretending that they aren't violent.

There is no Two-State Solution and there never will be. The Israelis and the Palestinians dislike each other so much, and have disliked each other for so long, that the only permanent solutions are:

1) both sides put down all their weapons and the Palestinians accept the fact that Israel is in charge but will allow them to live out their lives without incident. No more teenagers throwing rocks at soldiers, no more soldiers shooting teenagers in the street for throwing rocks, no more midnight rocket attacks, no more hiding militants in hospitals or schools, no more uprisings, etc, just people living their lives from day to day with supervised access to the Temple Mount (which Israel graciously allows).

or 2) fight to the last man standing, winner take all. Yes, you could make the case that Israel is already working towards this goal, albeit slowly, but that really isn't the main topic here.

By making this declaration, Trump has helped secure some votes for Republicans next year. Many Christians automatically support Israel and some of them are quite adamant in their support--they truly believe that if Israel can be made secure so that all Jewish people may return there that the End Times will begin, following the schedule of events plotted out in Revelations. On a more secular level, Democrats who openly oppose this move risk losing Jewish votes--this can be important in places like New York, New Jersey, and Florida.

At least now we can quit pretending or giving non-answers like the Obama Administration always gave:
Q: What is the capital of Israel?
A: Our answer is what is has always been.
Q: Yes, but what is the answer?
A: Our answer is already on record. Next question.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Jerusalem: 'I am concerned about the human cost of this decision'

Quote:

Palestinian demonstrator's foot on photo of Donald Trump and the American flag in Gaza on December 7, 2017. / Khalil Hamra / AP


He fears that other governments will follow in the footsteps of the United States, says Father David Neuhaus, a Jesuit, and professor at the University of Bethlehem.

Fr Neuhaus, the former director of the Hebrew-speaking Community of the Holy Land, Donald Trump's announcement to move the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is gravely detrimental to the Jerusalem's pluralism. La Croix spoke to him.

[…]

Marie Malzac: Why has Trump decided to finally keep a promise made by the US administration more than twenty years ago?

Father David: The question being asked currently by Israeli analysts is whether this diplomatic development is a gift from the United States, or whether there is something more complex behind it: some kind of trade-off, for example.

[…]

Marie Malzac: What do you think the short-term consequences of Trump's decision will be?

Father David: What will the human cost of this decision be, in terms of protests, repression, and even killings? This is the greatest concern. The Palestinians still have the power to mobilize, but they are tired.

The other fear is that other governments will follow in the footsteps of the United States. The Philippines have already applauded the American decision.

We are on the brink of a very uncertain situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Meh...Israel doesn't want Palestine to recognise them. It's long been their policy to make life so unbearable for them that they just give up and go away.

There are too many people on both sides who prefer there to be a conflict I think.

This...it's just cosmetic...for the US anyway. Maybe Trump playing to his base, I dunno.

Wasn't the point in the past to keep Jerusalem more neutral given its importance to multiple religions?

So much for that I guess...

--A


Totally agree Israel doesn't want or need Palestine to recognise them. Personally I thought a two-state solution had promise. This move has not.

Anyway wasn't it Kushner who brokered this new position? Not entirely surprising where its end up then really is it.

But definitely with Peter - the US - in particular Trump should keep his nose out of the Israel/Palestinian dispute and by involving themselves they have just made it very clear they are not serious about supporting a peace process between these two "states".
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wasn't cowardice that stopped other US presidents from pushing this issue - it was diplomacy. trump is playing to his domestic [republican] audience again with little thought in respect of the consequences of his words. Also [though I've not heard this angle put forward as yet] it could be seen as indirectly cocking a snook at Iran, who he appears to loath. Iran has repeatedly stated it's position that Israel should not even exist, so any message of the nature of Trump's Jerusalem pronouncement is bound to be anathema to them.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

What does Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital mean for the city's status?

Quote:
[…]

American diplomats say Jerusalem's status remains the same

In addition to the waiver, American diplomats have referred frequently to Trump declining to specify between West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem in his announcement.

West Jerusalem is largely accepted by the international community to be Israeli sovereign territory, while East Jerusalem is not officially recognized in the same light. The conflict largely stems from both the Israeli government and the Palestinians claiming East Jerusalem as their capital.

In failing to specify between East and West, Musu explained that several parties may have interpreted his statements as an endorsement of Israel's claim to the whole of Jerusalem. Trump later said that the final status of Jerusalem must be determined between the two parties.

[…]

However, professor emeritus at Simon Fraser University, Heribert Adam, adds in an email statement that while Trump's announcement does not change the status of Jerusalem immediately, it will provide leverage for Israeli negotiations going forward.

"In the foreseeable future, there will be neither a two-state solution or a one-state solution, but a cementing of the status quo with Israel being able to dictate further settlement expansion and reduction of Palestinian rights, despite rhetorical protests from world leaders."

[…]


-----------------------------------------------------

peter wrote:
It wasn't cowardice that stopped other US presidents from pushing this issue - it was diplomacy. trump is playing to his domestic [republican] audience again with little thought in respect of the consequences of his words. …


Seems to me that the question is, short of unequivocally backfilling the hole he's dug, how can he get himself out without digging himself deeper?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Avatar wrote:
Meh...Israel doesn't want Palestine to recognise them. It's long been their policy to make life so unbearable for them that they just give up and go away.

There are too many people on both sides who prefer there to be a conflict I think.

This...it's just cosmetic...for the US anyway. Maybe Trump playing to his base, I dunno.

Wasn't the point in the past to keep Jerusalem more neutral given its importance to multiple religions?

So much for that I guess...

--A


Totally agree Israel doesn't want or need Palestine to recognise them. Personally I thought a two-state solution had promise. This move has not.

Anyway wasn't it Kushner who brokered this new position? Not entirely surprising where its end up then really is it.

But definitely with Peter - the US - in particular Trump should keep his nose out of the Israel/Palestinian dispute and by involving themselves they have just made it very clear they are not serious about supporting a peace process between these two "states".



What two states are you speaking of? There will never be two states. While it is possible (and it almost happened once) that Israel might accept the two state solution, the Palestinian authorities won't.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NYC nutjob, Akayed Ullah--clearly a failure as a terrorist given that his homemade device failed to kill even him despite being strapped to his chest--was motivated by Israel's response to the Palestinian response to Trump's decision. That sentence was more complex than it should have been. Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capitol, Palestinian militants fired some rockets into Israel, so Israel sent back some bombs--that last part prompted Mr. Ullah to act.

Mr. Ullah is of Bangladeshi descent--his family isn't even from that region of the world.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are no "two states", and pretending there are is ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shrug* There was no Israel 100 years ago. States are made by politics or war or decree or whatever other human agency.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
*shrug* There was no Israel 100 years ago. States are made by politics or war or decree or whatever other human agency.
No Palestine either, and Jerusalem belonged to Jordan. There's a historical precedent for the existence of the country, and you're being a lazy sophist to claim otherwise. There are a multitude of Arab nations in the region who could accommodate the Palestinians (such as they are), yet they choose not to. Given the hostility towards the Israelis, why on Earth should they yield anything?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lazy; unwilling to do work or use energy
Sophist; a person who reasons with clever but false arguments.

There seems to be something incompatible there somewhere (maybe the second sounds like it would be hard work) but that is by the by.

I would say that historical precedent has had little to do with drawing up the boundaries of nation states in the middle East to date but hey ........
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Avatar wrote:
*shrug* There was no Israel 100 years ago. States are made by politics or war or decree or whatever other human agency.
No Palestine either, and Jerusalem belonged to Jordan. There's a historical precedent for the existence of the country, and you're being a lazy sophist to claim otherwise. There are a multitude of Arab nations in the region who could accommodate the Palestinians (such as they are), yet they choose not to. Given the hostility towards the Israelis, why on Earth should they yield anything?


The point is that neither existed - so why preference one "state" over another.

Av is right - statehood is established by politics, war or decree. Thats not sophistry or simplistic.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
No Palestine either, and Jerusalem belonged to Jordan. There's a historical precedent for the existence of the country, and you're being a lazy sophist to claim otherwise.


Iron Age precedent? The kingdom of Israel was destroyed by the Assyrians about a thousand years before Christ. And the Romans named the region Palaestina about a thousand years ago too. Hell, when the UN created Israel, it was called "The Partition Plan For Palestine."

If enough people were willing to accept a two-state solution (whoever those people are...whether Israeli's, Palestinians, or other Arab states), then the borders could be drawn, the same way the borders of Israel were drawn after WWII. (And part of the reason for that was that nobody really wanted all the Jewish refugees, and they were damned if they were going to be without a state of their own for obvious reasons.)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then in that case, might makes right, and the Israelis hold the territory, so....

And again, if the Arabs don't want their own, why should the Israelis accommodate them?
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