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The House
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: The House Reply with quote

I heard the following the other day and wondered who each of you would be more sympathetic to. Its a more complex scenario than it seems.

You live in a typical suburban neighborhood.

The house across the street was built by a shady contractor that didn't care about bad wiring, substandard materials or that the house was built in a sink hole prone location.

The people that own the house across the street are ordinary folks and keep to themselves for the most part. They know that their house has major flaws but they have no real alternative but to live there and hope for the best.

One day the house across the street collapses and is uninhabitable.

The neighbors have no money to make repairs and the wife is 9 months pregnant and is expecting any moment.

Your neighbors break into your basement and begin living there. The next day the pregnant woman gives birth to a baby girl.

You are sympathetic to your neighbors plight but they broke into your home and you want them to leave.

You discover that according to the law, because your neighbor's baby was born in your basement, the newborn child now owns part of your house and cannot be forced to leave.

On her behalf her parents now say that because the child is part owner of the house she and her family shouldn't be forced to live in the drafty basement and they all should be allowed to move up to one of the first floor bedrooms and treated as equal residents.

Desperate, you go to the corrupt builder of your neighbor's house and demand that they make the home habitable again but the builder says it's not his problem and has you thrown out if his office saying that you are a horrible human being for wanting your neighbors to move out of your home in the first place.

How do you humanely reclaim your house?


This is indeed an analogy about illegal immigration.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: The House Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:

This is indeed an analogy about illegal immigration.


You don't say? Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You probably should have had a fence around your house ... Laughing

But we all know that fences are the worst evil you can propose to build. Property lines should not be enforced or guarded at all costs!! To do so is racist.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldve gone for a giant wall you babyist idiot.

A wall that keeps babies out.

But alas, sadly your analogy is flawed 😘 There neither is nor would be a law that would assign property rights or ownership to a baby, or on the sole basis of the geographic location of their birth.

😏
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The neighbors broke into my house, therefore they must now answer to the police, who will remove the unlawful residents from my house. Did my neighbors have insurance on their house? If so, they should sue the shady contractor for every penny they can get then buy a new house on a better lot.

That analogy doesn't work very well, unfortunately.

Generations of immigrants in decades past managed to find their way here and become citizens legally. If they can do it then so can these new people.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though there's no way to know exactly what each point of the analogy is trying to make it is clear it is addressing a number of issues.
The relationship of the US and it's neighbors south of the border.
Anchor babies.
Rights granted to illegal immigrants.
Neighbor countries unwillingness or inability to provide a positive living environment for their citizens.
The villification of the United States desire to help ( interfere ) with other country's problems.
The desperation inspiring foreign citizens to violate the sovrenty of another country to escape poverty or threats to their safety.
The struggle to find a way to deal with illegal immigrants at large with as much compassion and understanding as possible.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrible analogy, as everyone has an option where to live.

But my answer is that they would have been shot when they broke into my house.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Terrible analogy, as everyone has an option where to live.

But my answer is that they would have been shot when they broke into my house.


I think its a pretty good analogy. Someone illegally take residence in your house and somehow the law allows it. Not only are your forced to accept it, you are forced by law to give them some of your dollars to support them.

But I agree that they should have been shot if they break into your home....but what does that say about our border? Why isnt it being protected.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote

Somehow the law allows it

The analogy blends squatter Law, property law and ownership with immigration law ... which incidentally makes the squatters illegal anyhow and then introduces dreamers. Its an interesting scenario that ends up with the squatters shot presumably before they have an opportunity for childbirth .. problem solved.

So the moral of this story is illegal entrants should be rightfully shot. Its mightily fucked up lol 😂 and not in a good way 🙄
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Illegal immigrants cannot have the situation both ways--they cannot disregard immigration laws with which they do not agree yet then try to turn around and claim various legal protections from being deported and/or cite laws as to why they should be receiving benefits. Either all the laws apply to them or none of them do. The rest of us are required to comply with the law; it is only equitable that they comply, as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The law is clear on this .. as illegals no domestic US laws apply to them. The end.

However, there are multiple international laws that exist to remind all states about humanitarian principles and their responsibilities with regard to displaced persons, refugees etc.

The point is illegal entrants would not be assigned property rights, let alone be awarded ownership. Its beyond ludicrous. Secondly, no law exists in any state that assigns legal ownership, property rights or anything akin to that to a minor.

For this reason the analogy is flawed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So perhaps we need to set aside the flawed analogy and just talk about immigration, immigration law and children born in the US of illegal entrants.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you believe in the validity of national borders....

If you believe in the sovereignty of individual states....

If you believe that sovereignty entitles those states to define who's allowed within their borders....

If you believe that sovereignty, combined with the legal police powers of those states, allows the state to enforce said border and immigration policy as defined by the laws of that state....

Then this is a simple exercise. Anyone within the borders of a sovereign nation-state without the express permission of said state is - by definition - an illegal alien, and subject to deportation, regardless of how they got there.


If you take issue with any of those things, then you take issue with them all. If a state can't implement and enforce it's own immigration policy, then you don't believe in either sovereignty or the validity of national borders.

It's really that simple.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep no argument here with any of that... lol 😂

But isnt this really a discussion about what that policy could or should look like.... 😏
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
But isnt this really a discussion about what that policy could or should look like.... 😏
Indeed it is. If you're here illegally, you should be thrown out, no matter the circumstances of your arrival. Legal entry requirements should be both stricter (if you're illiterate you're not welcome) and more secure, as well as quicker and less expensive.

But there's no ambiguity - If you're here illegally, we will find you and we will throw your ass out.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear there is hardly anything literal in the analogy. The point has nothing to do with breaking into an actual house or property rights given to children. Just saying. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that. The point is whether or not sovereign states have the moral authority to determine who's allowed within their borders, or whether their sovereignty and the borders are void.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think illegal immigration is bad, try having me as your kid. I probably cook worse, clean worse, act worse and think worse than most illegal immigrants. I'm not sure why my parents put up with me. We shouldn't even have naturalized citizens based on being a child of two American citizens who live here. It's too easy an assumption. Before any immigrants are deported, deport me. To where I don't know. Maybe the sidewalk in front of my parents house.

Also remember that each individual citizen does not own this country entire. I know this does not destroy every point the analogy makes, but it must be understood that if a citizen objects to the deportation of an immigrant, you effectively have a member of the household objecting. This probably leads to questions about individual states rights and federal govt (which, being an amalgamation of state representatives, votes and such, can probably be aeen not a higher government and more of a mixed government. I could go on about the court system but honestly what do I know?) I suppose Donald Trump counts as closest (at least nominally) to our head of household, making him head of the patriarchy.

Another complicating factor is America's (or any country's) intervention in one way or another in other country's affairs. Remember that in this analogy, applied to the country which as far as i know most of us live in, we have some responsibility in the shady construction of other houses on our block.

Edit: DEPORT THOMAS COVENANT
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail .. thats not the point that is irrefutable fact🧐. Sovereign states have absolute authority and power to govern themselves, their citizens, make domestic laws and enforce them. Thats not really in question.


Holsety... you make some very interesting observations.
What do you mean when youve note that the US has a responsibility over other .. countries .. houses.

Is that a moral imperative.. or is it derived by other considerations..

Apologies for lack of punctuation
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Cail .. thats not the point that is irrefutable fact🧐. Sovereign states have absolute authority and power to govern themselves, their citizens, make domestic laws and enforce them. Thats not really in question.
You're not paying attention then, because that's exactly the question. We have immigration laws, and the so-called Dreamers are in violation of those laws. There are people who think we should ignore those laws, and call those who want to enforce the law of the land, "racist".

If you believe the truisms I posted, then the immigration debate is over. The only thing left to discuss is whether or not we need to change the laws via the legislature, rather than an imperial president's end-run around the Constitution.
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