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How's everyone enjoying their "Global Warming"?
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How do you like the Global Warming so far?
This sucks like all get out!!!!!!!!!
50%
 50%  [ 13 ]
Mildly annoying
11%
 11%  [ 3 ]
Who cares, it's only weather
26%
 26%  [ 7 ]
This is kinda okay
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Man I love this S**t, bring it on!!!!!!!!
11%
 11%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 26

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I remember hearing that the Romans wiped out some species by using them in the Coliseum so much. The passenger pigeon and bison didn't do too well in America. I guess we were using fossil fuels at some points during that, but that's not what wiped the animals out. It was just good ol' people killing things.

I'm opposed to killing animals just for fun, or for a trophy. But sometimes something will go extinct because of us because we eat them, or we took over their habitat. I think it's idiotic that some project has to stop because some toad was spotted in the area. And if we reintroduce wolves to an area where they disappeared because the sheep ranchers killed them, and they start killing the sheep again...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rawedge Rim wrote:


to your point of driving species to extinction:

Way before fossil fuels, and prior to much farming by the majority of the human species; humans managed to drive a number of species into extinction. Pretty much all the mega fauna of North and South America was driven into extinction by low birth rates and hunting by humans (using only freaking spears and atlatls). Europe managed to kill off all the big cats, large cattle and deer, and most of the bears and wolves, all without a fossil fuel anything.


So you've managed to miss the point entirely then Wink

I provided an article that talked about that very thing. As Z rightly observed. M point is that the human population is larger today .. no? Human activity is greater, no? The impact to human survival has become so much greater than ever before in the history of the planet.

When we lose our oxygen producing organisms i.e. phytoplankton and we cull large swaths of forests .. we are harming ourselves.

It is in our interests to exercise environmental responsibility .. our survival is intrinsically connected to the survival of critical elements of our environment i.e. the bee.

Humans survived the loss of "the big cats in wherever", survived the loss of "bison" .. humans cannot survive without oxygen, food or water. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:


to your point of driving species to extinction:

Way before fossil fuels, and prior to much farming by the majority of the human species; humans managed to drive a number of species into extinction. Pretty much all the mega fauna of North and South America was driven into extinction by low birth rates and hunting by humans (using only freaking spears and atlatls). Europe managed to kill off all the big cats, large cattle and deer, and most of the bears and wolves, all without a fossil fuel anything.


So you've managed to miss the point entirely then Wink

I provided an article that talked about that very thing. As Z rightly observed. M point is that the human population is larger today .. no? Human activity is greater, no? The impact to human survival has become so much greater than ever before in the history of the planet.

When we lose our oxygen producing organisms i.e. phytoplankton and we cull large swaths of forests .. we are harming ourselves.

It is in our interests to exercise environmental responsibility .. our survival is intrinsically connected to the survival of critical elements of our environment i.e. the bee.

Humans survived the loss of "the big cats in wherever", survived the loss of "bison" .. humans cannot survive without oxygen, food or water. Rolling Eyes


not sure about the Down Under, but the Honey Bee, the preferred pollinator, isn't even native to North and South America. many of the plants we use those bee's to pollinate don't originate here in the New World, though I admit that we have become somewhat dependent on that critter for many things.

I do believe however, that us semi-intelligent great apes, somewhat smarter than the Chimpanzee and the Gorilla, can probably come up with a way to not only survive, but continue to thrive in a changing enviroment.

And what everyone on the otherside of the argument seem to forget is that at least in most of the West, we have already reduced emmissions, especially compared to the early and mid 20th century. And as technology improves, more advances in reducing hazardous emmisions will be incorporated.

Now if the Chinese, Indians, and Brazilians would get on board, you might see some real reductions.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely...

Though I'm not sure that we have reduced emissions to a greater level than was achieved in the early to mid 20th century.. given the emissions would also have been significantly less than that are produced today ... but you could be right ..

I genuinely hope you are right that we clever apes can come up with the goods Very Happy

Down under we have native bees who are brilliant and do not sting.. some primary schools have native bee hives which they care for and harvest honey from. To teach kiddies about the role and importance of the native bee.

We also have introduced bees Wink and a host of other now harmful bugs and critters - introduced to control one issue or another .. like the wild rabbit, the house mouse, the red fox, the feral cat, cane toads, red fire ants etc.. most of these are feral, pests or invasive.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
I think what you see as "cult" is in fact about seeking greater responsibility, looking for sustainable practices above non-sustainable ones, its about acknowledging finite resources, as finite.
A resource is something that humans transform into usefulness. We keep finding better ways to turn things into usefulness. Our ability to do so is increasing, not decreasing. Resources aren't finite.

Quote:
Anthropocentric much?
Very much!

Quote:
You see the problem with this thinking is it fails to acknowledge the symbiotic relationship we as humans have with our environments, with the planet .. and the critical relationships with specific species currently threatened, like bees for example.
I haven't failed to note symbiotic relationships. If an organism is useful to us, then it's important. But this is also why the animals that we eat are in no danger of going extinct. Being useful to humans is the surest way to guarantee continued existence.

I started a whole thread on the bee issue. People here used to panic about losing the bees. Turns out that capitalism solved the problem and hardly no one noticed. The solution? Bee keepers bred more bees. When humans are making money on a particular organism, they have a particular interest in preserving it. Profit motive isn't just greed, it's also a power that preserves. Smile

Quote:
What about oxygen? Humans need oxygen to exist .. so where do you imagine our oxygen come from?
Are you serious? You actually fear having enough oxygen??

Quote:
.. we can not continue the way we are and not expect real consequences.
Where do you learn this stuff? We're sustaining ourselves just fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
When we lose our oxygen producing organisms i.e. phytoplankton and we cull large swaths of forests .. we are harming ourselves.


It is not possible to kill off phytoplankton and/or algae species and trees regrow. In fact, trees regrow faster than you might think--I used to live in *very* rural Louisiana, right across the street from a large swath of land owned by Georgia Pacific. One of their tracts of land was culled for its trees when we moved there (I was 6 at the time) and by the time we left (when I was 11), that tract was already full of small trees. Enough time has passed that they have probably culled it again since we left.

Some alarmists are more concerned with polar bears (who are not going to die--they aren't stupid, either, and will migrate to where they can find food) and trees than with people such as the Rohingya, who are being systematically slaughtered in Burma.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Research and evidence disagrees with you Hashi

In the last 60 years phytoplankton has declined by 40%

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/plankton-under-threat-tiny-life-in-major-need-of-your-help/

How phytoplankton is declining

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1298596/Massive-40-decline-oceans-phytoplankton-puts-entire-food-chain-threat.html

https://phys.org/news/2012-05-global-plankton-threat.html


https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl

[url] [/url][url]
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z .. do you really need me to connect all the dots? Rolling Eyes

Where does oxygen come from 101

https://stephenleahy.net/2016/04/28/oceans-on-the-brink-dying-plankton-dead-zones-acidification/

Phytoplankton produce more than half the oxygen humans breathe the rest is produced by land based plants i.e. trees.

If acidity in oceans are increasing (as is being tracked), plankton declining and deforestation continues at the rate it currently is .. and no environmentally sustainable approaches adopted .. where does that leave the planets life giving oxygen sources of which sooo many living organisms depend?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deforestation is not really an issue anymore. This is actually a problem that's been all but fixed by advanced technology and capitalism.

Sky, that 40% number is bullshit, and had you read the article rather than just quoted the headline, you'd know that.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Cail's article:

Quote:

..estimates of plankton death were previously exaggerated more than sixfold in much of the oceans.


The alarmists are always too alarmed. And this is because of confirmation bias. They cherry pick information that is often flawed or biased (as the phytoplankton numbers) because that information confirms something they already believe: humans are bad. It's an anti-humanist, nihilistic mindset disguised as environmentalism. The environmental movement began by people who think things we've heard echoed here, like "mankind is the biggest threat." And worse. They don't really want to save the environment and help mankind as much as they want to resist any change whatsoever, and technological advancement in particular.

It's not just a sixfold mistake in the decline of plankton (woops!). It's also hundreds of climate models that have failed to get today's temperatures right. These climate models from 20-30 years ago drive all the policy and ideology of today, and very few bother to acknowledge that all their predictions were wrong.

The planet is getting slightly warmer. It has been warmer in the past. Life has flourished under warmer conditions. There is an upper limit to how much CO2 can warm the earth, even if we put out 1000 times more, and that limit is well below what the alarmists fear.

We need to be burning MUCH more fossil fuels than we are now, if we care at all about the plight of poverty-stricken humans. Anything less is just cruelty for ignorance's sake. Godamn alarmists are holding back the human race and inflicting suffering upon billions of people. They're worse than the Pope. Laughing If we could just get the people who want to hold humanity back to shut TFU, we could see prosperity greater than their wildest socialist dreams. But people are gullible, especially when they harbor self-hate. It's easy to get people who don't like themselves to hate the rest of humanity, too. You just get them to lose hope and over-generalize, and then they are sheep for your slaughter.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even PERC whos site you have taken your graphs from Cail, claim to seek better stewardship over the environment. And this is precisely what I am talking about.

Ok kudos for locating the [i]bullshit[/] article. It would seem that the original study suffered from a geometric model error.

Nevertheless the same capability is still in use in 2018, today by NASA to track global changes

However .. the article you provided Cail has not said everything is rosy - they acknowledge that phytoplankton is still in decline and is affected by oceans warming. They were initially wrong about the degree of that decline. That is good news for all. However, its not done and dusted ...

Quote:
While the relationship between phytoplankton decline and warming is still there, the magnitude of the response is smaller than we thought earlier


None of this means that there is no problem here and that we should all go home and sit on our laurels.

Phytoplankton doesnt only produce most of the oxygen living organisms breathe but it also absorbs carbon emissions from the atmosphere, which makes it an extremely critical to remediating the affects of climate change and global warming.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NASAs modelling maps CO2 levels, global temps, sea level changes .. its not bullshit.

Yes the previous model had a flaw which they have addressed .. like technology advances so to does accuracy with it.

https://climate.nasa.gov
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Even PERC whos site you have taken your graphs from Cail, claim to seek better stewardship over the environment. And this is precisely what I am talking about.

Ok kudos for locating the [i]bullshit[/] article. It would seem that the original study suffered from a geometric model error.

Nevertheless the same capability is still in use in 2018, today by NASA to track global changes

However .. the article you provided Cail has not said everything is rosy - they acknowledge that phytoplankton is still in decline and is affected by oceans warming. They were initially wrong about the degree of that decline. That is good news for all. However, its not done and dusted ...

Quote:
While the relationship between phytoplankton decline and warming is still there, the magnitude of the response is smaller than we thought earlier


None of this means that there is no problem here and that we should all go home and sit on our laurels.

Phytoplankton doesnt only produce most of the oxygen living organisms breathe but it also absorbs carbon emissions from the atmosphere, which makes it an extremely critical to remediating the affects of climate change and global warming.
Again, had you read your article....My link was posted by the author of your link.

Bullshit numbers are bullshit.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Cail 😎

The point you continually fail to acknowledge is that phytoplankton is in decline and is affected by global warming .. your bullshit article acknowledged that.

They miscalculated the impact and degree of the decline. Even though rates of decline are much, much slower .. they are still in decline.

Meaning ... this remains a problem to be overcome.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deflection again.

I don't care about the phytoplankton. What I care about is alarmists like you picking and choosing faulty data based on their confirmation bias. Nothing you post on the subject can be taken seriously, as the initial article you posted was absolute, utter bullshit.

Your posts here are why people don't take climate alarmists seriously.

The rise of climate alarmism coincided with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. Some new fear was needed to keep people in line, and *poof*...We got this. Don't agree with the narrative? You clearly hate the planet and want the human race to become extinct. It's brilliant actually, other than the fact that it doesn't pass the "straight face" test.

Not a single dire climate prediction over the last 28 years has come to pass. Not one.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow .. that is some seriously whacked out reasoning.😂 And I use that word in the lightest possible way .. because what you describe is not reasonable or logical.

The data was not BULLSHIT it relied on a flawed model which was conceded by its author.

The problem remains.. just not as severe as was then forecast.

Everything is not part of a whacked out conspiracy theory. No one wants global warming .. lol 😂 ... the point in identifying issues is to seek solutions, better more sustainable environmental methods and practices. How in hell does that equate with what you have described ... which is indeed imo mightily fucked up.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Wow .. that is some seriously whacked out reasoning.😂 And I use that word in the lightest possible way .. because what you describe is not reasonable or logical.

The data was not BULLSHIT it relied on a flawed model which was conceded by its author.
The flawed model was bullshit. And it's bullshit that the author amended his story rather than deleting the bullshit claim, then putting a disclaimer at the bottom. Because people like you who don't bother to read the entire article will cry out, "oh noes, the phytoplankton!"

Skyweir wrote:
The problem remains.. just not as severe as was then forecast.
A change in the phytoplankton population is not necessarily a problem. And this is the problem with the alarmists. Any change from an arbitrary status quo is seen as a crisis. Nowhere in any of the alarmist's screeds is any scientifically-based ideal for temperature, sea level, or any other hard data. In order to be taken seriously about climate change, you need to know what the "ideal" climate is, or what it's "supposed" to be. You don't. No one does. The Earth's climate is in constant flux; always has been, always will. Are humans influencing that flux? Maybe. Probably. So what? Is it worth destroying the standard of living for the planet in order to try to prevent a .01 degree temperature increase over the next century? Is it even possible?

You don't know that either. You're chicken little with no grasp of either whether or not there's an actual problem, and no idea whatsoever whether or not any change in human behavior can make a difference.

Skyweir wrote:
Everything is not part of a whacked out conspiracy theory. No one wants global warming .. lol 😂 ... the point in identifying issues is to seek solutions, better more sustainable environmental methods and practices. How in hell does that equate with what you have described ... which is indeed imo mightily fucked up.
No, everything's not a conspiracy. But it's also no secret that governments use fear to control people.

The Earth is going to warm up with or without us. It's also going to cool with or without us. It is the height of hubris thinking that we're in control of the planet's climate.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are alarmists who are not completely off the grid, relying entirely on solar/wind/some other ecologically-friendly energy source, collecting their own rainwater and/or runoff, and making certain they aren't contributing the problem in any way whatsoever hypocrites? Given the amount of dangerous chemicals which go into the process of building, maintaining, and using both computers and the Internet, should alarmists be using the Internet?

Why do alarmists preach abnegation as the highest virtue?

As Cail notes, no alarmist prediction, going back to the start of this whole mess (looking back, I think it started after the Ozone Hole nonsense--that phenomenon also failed to be what people were claiming it was at the time), has ever come true. If the hypothesis leads to a model yet none of the model's predictions come true in the time frame as denoted in the model, then either the hypothesis is wrong or the model is wrong. Either way, the time has come for alarmists to go back to the chalk board and figure out which one is wrong--the hypothesis or the model.

In the meantime, we have actual problems which need to be addressed right now, not potential problems which may (or may not) happen 80 years from now. I already mentioned Burma. I could mention Yemen, or Syria, or Venezuela, or the DPRK, or the slave markets in Libya (migrants and/or refugees often sell for about $400 there)--take your pick.

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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are indeed a plethora of problems in this world Hashi L

... does your identifying them make you an alarmist?


Targeted efforts are always more effective measures.

Nit picking at the level youre referring to is senseless.

We are however among the most fortunate.. we have solar power which reduces my energy costs, 3 rainwater tanks and a bore that accesses spring water .. so we pay nothing for water use. Yet we are still careful as water is a precious resource in these parts. We grow our own food. We use organic and sustainable farming practices as they provide greater return. We are the ones who benefit from this lifestyle.

We are wildlife rescue workers, so we do what we can to care for injured or orphaned native animals. We personally love this work so again we benefit.

We are not entirely off the grid .. we are not Grizzly Adams type characters. We have satellite telly and internet .. which is pretty crap tbh. So we still enjoy the little luxuries of life. I dont litter .. no one collects our rubbish .. we must take our own rubbish to the tip so its in our interest not to generate refuse.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
There are indeed a plethora of problems in this world Hashi L

... does your identifying them make you an alarmist?

No, because those are actual, quantifiable problems, not made-up hokum.
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