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President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Why Vatican won't be joining U.S. on Jerusalem's Embassy Row

Quote:

Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 2nd left, his wife Sara Netanyahu, left, Senior White House Advisor Jared Kushner, 3rd left, U.S. President's daughter Ivanka Trump, center, U.S. Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin, attend the opening ceremony of the new U.S. embassy in Jerusalem, Monday, May 14, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Sebastian Scheiner.)


[...]

Regardless of what one makes of either minister [Jeffress or Hagee], their presence at Monday's dedication reflects the ardent support of the Evangelical community in America for both Israel and Trump, with 80 percent of white Evangelicals having backed the president in 2016.

Notably, however, there were no Catholic dignitaries on Monday's line-up -- no American Catholic leaders, no members of the local Christian community in the Holy Land, and certainly not Archbishop Leopoldo Girelli, the pope's ambassador to Israel, whose embassy remains firmly ensconced in Tel Aviv. No Catholic gave a blessing, and no prominent Catholic figure was heard endorsing the move.

However much Evangelicals and Catholics in America may have grown close in recent decades, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict remains one area in which Catholic officialdom simply isn't on board.

St. John Paul II, for instance, was widely perceived as a friend of Judaism and of Israel. Yet it irritated Israelis that he also met PLO leader Yasser Arafat 12 times, treating him as a serious statesman rather than the gun-toting thug most Israelis perceived him to be.

So keen was John Paul's affection, actually, that when the Palestinian leader once gave him a set of pearl-white Stations of the Cross, John Paul had them installed in the chapel of the Vatican hall where the Synod of Bishops meets.

That stance has continued under Francis, who was among the first world leaders to speak out against the embassy move when Trump announced it last December.

"I wish to make a heartfelt appeal to ensure that everyone is committed to respecting the status quo of the city, in accordance with the relevant resolutions of the United Nations," the pope said, speaking during his weekly General Audience at the Vatican.

"I pray ... that wisdom and prudence prevail, to avoid adding new elements of tension in a world already shaken and scarred by many cruel conflicts," Francis said, in language that seems fairly prescient now in light of violence on the Gaza Strip protesting the embassy move which, so far, has left 58 people dead and some 2,700 wounded.

Last summer, after a crisis surrounding the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a Vatican diplomat speaking before the United Nations reiterated the Holy See's long-standing position that Jerusalem is in a unique diplomatic category.

Monsignor Simon Kassas, Charge d'Affaires of the Vatican's mission to the United Nations, said the Vatican believes Jerusalem needs an "internationally guaranteed" special status, in order to ensure freedom of religion for the city's inhabitants, "as well as secure, free and unhindered access to the Holy Places by the faithful of all religions and nationalities."

There are many factors accounting for the Vatican's outlook, beginning with the fact that its points of reference are 1947 and 1948 UN resolutions calling for a special international status for Jerusalem. Vatican diplomats at the time played a key role in having that language inserted, counting on the support of the "Catholic countries" of Europe.

Jerusalem was envisioned as a corpus separatum, a place apart, though that plan was never implemented on the ground. The Vatican has softened its stance over the years, looking for vaguer "international guarantees," but still sees the UN resolutions as the de jure starting point.

[...]

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
but throwing rocks at the IDF stretches the definition of "peaceful protest" and has long been a dependable way to get a disproportionate response from them.


I agree with this. I had some time to watch some video clips. This wasn't a non-violent protest at all, regardless of what the media wants you to believe. I saw a number of weapons being used (primitive though they were). Many were not just throwing rocks but using slings to throw them. That makes those rocks deadly and increases the distance you can launch them. I saw tires being set on fire, people trying to destroy the fences, hand made explosive and incendiary devices being thrown. No this was not peaceful in any stretch of the imagination.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Maybe, but that wasn't my question.

What was the point of/motivation behind the US admin choosing to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital?

It's not like there was any need to. Diplomatic comms between the US and Israel presumably haven't been made any more efficient by this being done...

...so again, what the feck was the point? Where's the real-world benefit?
It's recognizing reality, and it's following through on a promise that hasn't been kept by the prior two administrations.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Maybe, but that wasn't my question.

What was the point of/motivation behind the US admin choosing to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital?

It's not like there was any need to. Diplomatic comms between the US and Israel presumably haven't been made any more efficient by this being done...

...so again, what the feck was the point? Where's the real-world benefit?
It's recognizing reality, and it's following through on a promise that hasn't been kept by the prior two administrations.


Hmmm.

I'm absolutely not buying into the "following through on promises" thing. Promises and commitments by previous administrations mean nothing - in fact, compare Trump walking away from Obama's Iran deal (which yes, wasn't in any way binding on the US as you yourself have vociferously and correctly pointed out - just like any unsanctioned promise or commitment made by any previous POTUS without the authority of Congress).

As to recognising reality... whose reality? Israel's clearly, but not the Arab world's.

Again, where are the advantages to the US people of its administration doing this? I can't see it as anything other than a symbolic and frankly pointless act that was bound to increase tension in the tinderbox that is the Middle East.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israel has the right to declare where it's capital is. The "reality" of the Arab world is meaningless in this case.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Israel does. - and I'll even leave aside any "legitimacy of territory occupied" considerations. But again that's not answering the question.

What's the advantage to the USA in recognising this via what was inevitably and obviously going to be seen as an inflammatory act?

Or if you'd rather, what would have been the downsides to US interests in the US Administration deciding to leave its Israeli embassy in Tel Aviv? Any at all?
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Yes Israel does. - and I'll even leave aside any "legitimacy of territory occupied" considerations. But again that's not answering the question.

What's the advantage to the USA in recognising this via what was inevitably and obviously going to be seen as an inflammatory act?

Or if you'd rather, what would have been the downsides to US interests in the US Administration deciding to leave its Israeli embassy in Tel Aviv? Any at all?
The largest downside is that we're not recognizing an ally's capital. It's disrespectful. The only reason it's inflammatory is due to the rabid hatred of Jews and Israel in the region. That's neither the Israeli's or our doing.

If the Palestinians reacted to this with a collective shrug (and purging Hamas from their ranks), this would be no big deal.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, but in my view that's not much of a downside... a little disrespect through omission, rather than commission? Hardly worth noting. The US embassy's happily sat in Tel Aviv for decades.

I know why it's inflammatory and am not suggesting that there are justifiable grounds for it being so,

The fact remains - regardless of the lack of justification for it being inflammatory - that it very obviously WAS going to be inflammatory... so why do it? Were strategic relationships between the US and Israel going to be strained if the embassy wasn't moved? I doubt it.

I always ask myself cui bono? Sure I see the advantage to Israel - kind of a rubberstamping - but to either the US administration or the US people (not that the two should be separate, but hey, let's get real)?
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're minimizing things. Who cares that it's inflammatory to people who want Israel wiped off the map and every Jew exterminated?

Let's say you often meet with a black friend at a restaurant because you know your neighbors would be upset if they saw him. If there's an altercation when you invite him to your home, who's to blame for that? You?
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'll run with that ball.

Say I live next door to a KKK nutjob who I know for a fact has semi-automatic weapons and who I also know for a fact has previously sprayed lead at any black person he's seen near his house.

(Let's not get hung up on why he's not been thrown in jail yet).

Forget fault, accountability or blame.

Let's say I have for years traditionally held a 4th July BBQ in a nearby park, to which I invite family and friends of every race, religion and sexuality. A wonderful time has invariably been had by all.

Would it then be wise of me to all of a sudden and for no apparent reason decide to change the venue of said BBQ to my front yard? And then invite my black friends and their families there instead? Would that be a good idea for me, or my black friends or their families, given my certain foreknowledge of what will occur? Would everyone have just as good a time?

On a solely pragmatic basis, I wouldn't do it. I'd weigh up the real-world situation and act accordingly. Regardless of whether I should be able to do it, or the fact that I'd have every single right to do it.

There wouldn't be any upside... but plenty of potential downsides.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Okay, I'll run with that ball.

Say I live next door to a KKK nutjob who I know for a fact has semi-automatic weapons and who I also know for a fact has previously sprayed lead at any black person he's seen near his house.

(Let's not get hung up on why he's not been thrown in jail yet).

Forget fault, accountability or blame.

Let's say I have for years traditionally held a 4th July BBQ in a nearby park, to which I invite family and friends of every race, religion and sexuality. A wonderful time has invariably been had by all.

Would it then be wise of me to all of a sudden and for no apparent reason decide to change the venue of said BBQ to my front yard? And then invite my black friends and their families there instead? Would that be a good idea for me, or my black friends or their families, given my certain foreknowledge of what will occur? Would everyone have just as good a time?

On a solely pragmatic basis, I wouldn't do it. I'd weigh up the real-world situation and act accordingly. Regardless of whether I should be able to do it, or the fact that I'd have every single right to do it.

There wouldn't be any upside... but plenty of potential downsides.
We clearly have very different friends.....My friends would beg me to have the party in my front yard, and every last one of them would play up every stereotype they could.

By not having the party at your house, you're appeasing a party that should not be appeased.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pragmatism versus principle. That's all - but it's not a small thing.

I seriously doubt any of your or my friends would want to put their families and kids in high risk danger, just to make a point of principle.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand being against violence, but I've never understood the call for proportionate violence. If the Palestinians were killed with rocks and homemade bombs, would this be more satisfactory? Is the problem that Israel a lot better at defending itself than its attackers are at offense? Is violence supposed to be fair? I thought the point was to get the job done.

I only ever see this phrase being used against Israel, and it's always when it is defending itself too well. I think people recognize that they are beseiged on all sides by terrorists and enemies who want to blow them off the map, who attack their civilian populations unjustly, but for some reason they still view the aggressors as the underdogs. I guess if you're terrorists who want the sympathy of the Left, it pays to suck at being a terrorist.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur--the protests are not "nonviolent". I also maintain that Hamas would gladly sacrifice as many people--even children--as it takes to get international sympathy on their side. Hamas is not Palestine and it does not represent the Palestinian people; instead, Hamas sees the Palestinians only as a large group of disposable pawns. The "leadership" of the Palestinians who regularly attend UN meetings have the same view--their people are only pawns to them.

The other Arab nations claim to follow Islam, yet they do not gladly accept as many Palestinians into their nation as they can afford. They all view the Palestinians as pariahs and "someone else's problem".

Incidentally, TheFallen, there would have been no downside to keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv. Of course, continuing to leave the embassy there is to submit to the Palestinian emotional manipulation--"if you move the embassy we will get upset, and you wouldn't want us to become upset, would you"?

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Incidentally, TheFallen, there would have been no downside to keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv. Of course, continuing to leave the embassy there is to submit to the Palestinian emotional manipulation--"if you move the embassy we will get upset, and you wouldn't want us to become upset, would you"?

But isn't that exactly what's happened? Hamas has been delivered a perfect opportunity to both rabble rouse and - with brutal and calculated cynicism - to portray Israel in a particularly poor light by sacrificing some naive cannon fodder in full view of the world's media.

They wouldn't have had this opportunity, if Trump had himself not taken this entirely unnecessary decision and just stuck with the perfectly functional status quo.

In fact, I bet that Hamas couldn't believe its luck...
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TF, the question of why America would stand by its ally seems to be one that answers itself. I think a more pertinent question is: why do the Palestinians care? Where is all this rage coming from? If Jerusalem as Israel's capital isn't worth fighting for, isn't worth all this trouble, then why not pose the same question to the other side? Why act like our move was the unnecessary one, instead of theirs?

It's all about the denial of Israel as a legitimate state. I found this interesting:

Quote:
Rami G. Khouri is about as moderate a Palestinian commentator as you can find. He is Christian, recognizes that the Temple Mount is holy to Jews, and is willing to blame Arabs for their mistakes.

... he says something interesting:

The intense symbolism of Jerusalem for Palestinians includes two dimensions: the holy sites of the Noble Sanctuary, especially the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, but also the city as the capital of Palestine, even though a Palestinian state does not exist yet. If Jerusalem is allowed to fall to Zionist colonialism and become fully Judaized, the entire Palestinian national cause would have been dealt a fatal blow. Jerusalem has always been a central battle in the Arab war with Zionism - but for many Palestinians it is now also the last battle.

The PLO covenants of 1964 and 1968 did not mention Jerusalem once. The Palestinian National Charter of 1968 likewise does not mention Jerusalem a single time. (Fatah's charter does mention Jerusalem once.)
If Jerusalem has always been so central to Palestinian Arab nationalism, then why was it ignored for so long?


The interest that Arabs altogether, and Palestinians in particular, have shown in Jerusalem has been proportional to the interest that Jews have to assert their national and religious rights in their ancient capital. Between 1948 and 1967, Jerusalem was an unimportant Jordanian city, and there were no mass pilgrimages there. Only when Jews started to say that Jerusalem was theirs, and always has been, have the Arabs decided that it is supremely important for them too.

And this spills over even into the writings of a "moderate."
The fact is that if Palestinian nationalism cannot survive without Jerusalem, then it is an artificial construct to begin with. The nearly exclusive use of the Dome of the Rock as the constant backdrop for Palestinian press conferences is a relatively recent phenomenon.

They don't want Jerusalem - they want to ensure that Jews do not have Jerusalem. Because they know that Israel without Jerusalem is just a secular state, and they can deal with a secular state, because such states come and go. They cannot deal with a proud Jewish state that asserts rights that go back to before Islam existed.

Khouri has subconsciously revealed the shallowness of the Palestinian national cause. If it was about rights, or refugees, or land, or even "justice," then they could have a state. But it isn't about any of those. It is about the symbolism of controlling Jerusalem. And the only reason that this is so important is because of the Arab honor/shame society that cannot stomach the weak, dhimmi Jews asserting rights on land that everyone knows they have been tied to for thousands of years. The minute they give up on Jerusalem, they give up on the goal of expelling Jews from political power in the Middle East.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Incidentally, TheFallen, there would have been no downside to keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv. Of course, continuing to leave the embassy there is to submit to the Palestinian emotional manipulation--"if you move the embassy we will get upset, and you wouldn't want us to become upset, would you"?

But isn't that exactly what's happened? Hamas has been delivered a perfect opportunity to both rabble rouse and - with brutal and calculated cynicism - to portray Israel in a particularly poor light by sacrificing some naive cannon fodder in full view of the world's media.

They wouldn't have had this opportunity, if Trump had himself not taken this entirely unnecessary decision and just stuck with the perfectly functional status quo.

In fact, I bet that Hamas couldn't believe its luck...
Why should the US - or any other nation for that matter - base policy on whether or not Hamas is going to be upset? Doesn't that strike you as a little silly?
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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z,
Zarathustra wrote:
Why act like our move was the unnecessary one, instead of theirs?

Simply because in and of itself alone, the US move was unnecessary - it made no difference, brought no benefit and conferred no advantage.

Cail,
Cail wrote:
Why should the US - or any other nation for that matter - base policy on whether or not Hamas is going to be upset? Doesn't that strike you as a little silly?

What strikes me as silly is taking an apparently purely symbolic decision that confers no advantage to the US, but that instead affords Hamas a fabulous propaganda opportunity. It's not in the least about not upsetting Hamas - nope, it's about not helping them out, albeit accidentally.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One benefit from Trump's POV is that moving the embassy to Jerusalem played to the segment of his base which is evangelical Christian, as the move accords with their view that the end times are nigh. Notice the two clergy of that stripe who were part of the embassy dedication ceremony...

Let us all (well, those who are not convinced that they will be swept up to heaven in a Rapture prior to Armeggedon) hope this is not self-fulfilling prophesy.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Boyd Barret wrote:
The Palestinian people are protesting the seige of Gaza .. to not be dictated to by a government they do not vote for ... ... [beholden in Israel] whether they will have access to power, clean water, whether they will have medicine ....

... what makes you think you can have nuclear weapons and the 4th biggest army in the world which visits destruction on the people of Gaza and they have no right to defend themselves.... Israel is an apartheid racist state which different rules depending on what race you belong to ... if youre Arab you can enter the city in the same queue as Israelis. If you came here, and we said, Im sorry, youre Jews, you cant come into Ireland in this queue, thats for Irish and European people only, you have to enter in that queue over there for Jews. Youd say thats racism .. and that is what youre doing



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n7sSQFpyJu8
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