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Final Illuminations: The Redemption of the Haruchai
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

The Lords were not concerned with themselves, but for the welfare of the Land,

whereas the Master's concern was themselves, and their quest for worth.

And the Lords were making a choice for themselves, whereas the Masters were making a choice for everyone else.

They weren't just preventing Desecration, they were preventing everything in case it was Desecration.

Heh...almost didn't want to post a reply, cuz what you did is good.
Then couldn't resist...
Broke your sentences up to address them in steps...

On the first: yes. No doubt.

on the next: yes, but the difference between Masters and the Har. BEFORE Mastery [and which leads directly to your next point, as well] is their worth was their own to begin with...in Mastery, their path and measure of worth became the standard for everyone's ways and measure. [heh...weight and means?]

On the next...yep. For a Master, a necessary logical outcome of the previous.

On the last: I'd go one step further. For the Masters, they may have BEGUN preventing "in case" of desecration. But by the time we meet them in the LC's, they have long since concluded that if they don't prevent then desecration is inevitable. Some, many, or even almost all might avoid/resist it...but unless everyone is prevented, someone WILL desecrate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent OP wayfriend, another example of your fine scholarship.

I think that your analysis works perfectly for the Last Chronicles, however, I'm going to have to demur in relation to the 1st and 2nd Chronicles. I'm doing this for a couple of reasons. The first is a general intuition/feeling about the Haruchai in the LCs. I just didn't like them (whereas I admired and loved them in the 1st & 2nd Chronicles). The second is specific. I always admired their laconic passion, but I never felt that that passion was in any way incomplete. They loved passionately and also, I felt, grieved passionately. I always thought their flaw was to do with their capacity for harsh self-judgement rather than any emotional lack.

The two episodes that came to mind in relation to grief were the following:

in The Illearth War was wrote:
'Lord, they - we could not - the Giants--' Suddenly the habitual flatness of Tull's voice was gone. 'Lord!' The word vibrated with a grief so keen that the Bloodguard could not master it. [p.266]


In White Gold Wielder was wrote:
"This must be done. It is the way of our people."...

But Durris went on inflexibly, "Also we desire to grieve for Hergrom and Ceer - and for those whose blood has gone to the Banefire." [p.202-203]

The capacity to suppress grief is present only in the Bloodguard (Tull is new to the Vow). Tull is also an exemplar of the Haruchai (having succeeded in the necessary tests and trials required to win the honour of becoming a Bloodguard). Similarly, Durris, Fole and Cail are prime examples of the Haruchai and their capacity to grieve is equally intense.

I think that your analysis works for the LCs because SRD chooses to interpret the Haruchai's intransigence in a certain way. That interpretation is logically plausible, as you have admirably shown, but, for me, at a feeling level it doesn't work. I think that this is why the Masters in the LCs feel so completely different to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

u, I have always seen the Haruchai as men who have strong, passionate feelings, but who not only don't act on those feelings, but don't even express them, except at certain times and in certain ways. As Bloodguard, and then on the quest for the One Tree as well. If I thought that Donaldson deviated from this in the Lasat Cs, I would be the first to complain.

Clearly incidents such as the rain fight in WGW demonstrate grief.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
But Durris went on inflexibly, "Also we desire to grieve for Hergrom and Ceer and for those whose blood has gone to the Banefire."


So the question is ... when did this fear of grief emerge? Could it be sometime after the assumption of Mastery? This is also when they gave themselves the impossible task of preventing all Earthpower ever, in the name of Kevin.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say of the Haruchai [as Covenant said of Earthpower] that the thing that made them terrible was the same thing that made them wonderful. Would that that could have been preserved and they had been redeemed in some other way. Yes Staves people were redeemed - but the Haruchai were lost.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really cool WF. Makes me want to start all over again. Not yet tho Smile

Stave wrote:
Whatever may befall her, I will endeavor to prove that I am equal to my fears.
What are his fears? Not sure after reading whole thread if you spoke to that. Is he saying he will endeavor to grieve?

peter, the Haruchai were lost? How so? I think the Haruchai were about passion, towards deeds/service, which may be changed now, but not diminished?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybrweez wrote:
Really cool WF. Makes me want to start all over again. Not yet tho Smile


Me too. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember the young Haruchai who bore Korrik's tale to Hyrim and Shetra. IIRC his newness as Bloodguard made his voice crack with emotion and he received a corrective blow across the face as a result. This almost inhuman degree of self-controlled was not without its true life equivalent- witness Lord Uxbridge at Waterloo, turning to Wellington and saying "By God sir - I believe I've lost my leg!" Wellington glanced down and replied "By God Sir - so you have!"

Haruchai that laugh, Haruchai that cry, Haruchai in touch with their feminine side? Some things should never be. Wink
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....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
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We are the Bloodguard
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cybrweez wrote:
Stave wrote:
Whatever may befall her, I will endeavor to prove that I am equal to my fears.
What are his fears? Not sure after reading whole thread if you spoke to that. Is he saying he will endeavor to grieve?

Prior to that, Stave had said this.
In The Runes of the Earth was wrote:
"The perils which the Ranyhyn have foreseen for the Chosen are strait and arduous. They fear her as I do. They fear that the burdens of this age may be too great for her to bear."

So I presume Stave will endeavor to prove that he is equal to his fear that Linden will doom the Earth if she's left to do as she chooses. Which, in a specific way, is the antithesis of what the Masters have been doing all this time, and so this identifies what the Masters fear. The Masters fear anyone with enough power to make a difference doing something. Stave isn't only breaking with the Masters about Linden; he is breaking with them ideologically.

There's also a connection here to the overarching concept of "being ruled by fear", or not. Making decisions based on fear, especially when you don't realize you are, doesn't lead to good things. The Masters are ruled by their fears, and so their hegemony is pretty obviously bad. Stave and the Ranyhyn are making decisions despite their fear rather than because of it, leading to a better outcome.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Haruchai have seen firsthand the ill-use to which power may be put in the Land and in their all-or-nothing approach to their interpretation of TC's instructions toward the end of the second chrons, they decide that all forms of power usage in the Land must be eschewed. This is not I think out of fear: they are already halfway toward this idea in their belief that only what the individual may summon from his own personal strength is of value. What they have seen has merely confirmed this, so they respond in the typically Haruchai way of absolute denial.

Stave I'm guessing is fearfull that his decision to support Linden is the wrong one. He will prove equal to them by demonstrating his absolute Haruchai level commitment to his chosen path, even though it be in opposition (for the first time ever in Haruchai history?) to the collective decision of the Haruchai mind-hive.
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....and the glory of the world becomes less than it was....
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'Of course - you know you have.'
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We are the Bloodguard
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peter wrote:
This is not I think out of fear

I think it is fear. Fear of another Kevin Landwaster. ... if they permit some new Desecration when prevention lies within their power, their loss will efface all meaning from their lives.

Fear and need are two sides of the same coin. In as much as people need a meaning for their lives, they fear losing it. At least, that's Donaldson's position, according to his comments in the GI. "The latter group tends to be ruled by personal *want* and *need* (in other words, by fear)." I have more to say on this topic, but I am saving it for a future "Redemption" topic that is half-completed.

peter wrote:
Stave I'm guessing is fearfull that his decision to support Linden is the wrong one.

He seems pretty sure that the Ranyhyn are showing him the correct choice. Now, "fearing to be wrong" is not Haruchai! Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question on that last Wayfriend; do you think Stave was in any way special as a Haruchai - or would the experience's of travelling with Linden and the Horse rite have elicited the same response from any of them. ie Was it inherent to the Haruchai nature that those particular experiences would have overridden their normal shared unity of purpose, making Stave a 'Haruchai, not more, not less' - or was he different in some way (as 'modern man' seems to be from my generation Wink )?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a question that I have found no answer to, although (as noted in the OP) I have wondered.

The only clue I have is that Donaldson once said something to the effect that what happens to his characters are what they need to happen. It's not satisfactory, but it leans me in the direction that Stave was unique, if not special.

Edit:

In a Barnes & Noble Interview was wrote:
SD: One of my core convictions about storytelling is that stories should happen to people who need them. [link]

An important statement, I believe. I have always remembered it.

Stave needed to be awoken by the Ranyhyn. The other Masters did not.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link WF - I'll read it in full later today, but note at this point that the interviewer is of similar age and Donaldson history to me (though I had a copy of TWL open in front of me within an hour of serendipitously finding it in a bookstore window - and only that long because I had to rush home to get the money to pay for it! Laughing ). It'll make good reading! Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some sudden and unexpected thoughts as I listened to Brick reading Runes.

Just before the Horserite, Stave is beaten down pretty harshly by Esmer. (Because Esmer.) Then there is a choice before Stave and Linden, heal him or let him die. Stave would rather die, as healing would be a humiliation worse than death. Linden pretty much heals him up whether he likes it or not.

This has to affect Stave. He was, in his own mind, humiliated. Humiliation does many things to a person. Sometimes, if that person was overly prideful, it may even have some positive effects.

When Stave finally tells his tale of the Horserite, he speaks of ... Pride. And humility.

In The Runes of the Earth was wrote:
"When I had drunk of the mindblending waters, I learned that the Ranyhyn laughed at me."

"I have shared the horserite of the Ranyhyn, and have learned that we are not greater than they. Nor are we greater than the Ramen, who are content with service, and who do not attempt to alter that which lies beyond them."

"Nor are we greater than this Stonedownor, the least of the Chosen's companions, for he seeks only to join his cause with hers, and to partake in beauties and powers which we have withheld from him."

Therefore, I now suspect that Stave was made different from the other Masters through Linden's unwanted healing.

A fact that bears this up is Branl's arc. He, too, was healed, by a giant pool of hurtloam. This seemed to help him learn to grieve, and to be receptive to Stave's proclamation about love and service which I described in the OP.

------

Another. As I was thinking about the final resolution of Kastenessen, it occurred to me that symmetry would demand that the Elohim would be improved by Kastenessen's knowledge of love.

They had been as heartless as the Haruchai, manifested mostly in their inattention to the depredations of Foul. They didn't care.

Their "change of heart", pronounced by Infelice's last words in the story, might very well have been informed by this knowledge of love. I think it fits.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your insight is interesting WF .. especially that humilation especially to such a proud race of people .. such an event can have an intractable effect on such as him.

So the healing mellowed that response or sharpened it as it elevated his consciousness and enabled greater empathy in Stave?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think (but am only guessing) that Stave, having been humiliated and then having to live with it, had become less afraid of humiliation. Avoiding it no longer was the most important thing ever. And so he was more able to hear what the Ranyhyn said and hear something more in it than humiliation.

- - - - - - - - - - -

(I am in the middle of listening to the audio edition of Runes. And as I do I cannot help thinking about topics I have explored, and how certain passages add or subtract from what I have written.)

I don't know how I missed this. This bears directly.

In The Runes of the Earth was wrote:
"When the Haruchai determined to take upon themselves the burdens of Mastery," Galt said flatly, "they recognized their peril. It is the peril of Korik, Sill, and Doar.

"Their tale is surely known to you. Ruled by the Illearth Stone, they were made to serve Corruption. First they were maimed to resemble the Halfhand, ur-Lord Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. Then they were sent to bear battle and despair against the Council of Lords. Thus was the Vow of the Bloodguard tarnished, and their service brought to an end."

Without haste or emphasis, Galt stated, "The fault of Korik and Sill and Doar lay in this, that they allowed their ire at the destruction of the Unhomed to sway them. They believed that the outrage in their hearts would raise them to the stature of terrible banes and deathless malice. From their example, the Haruchai learned the peril of such passions. When we determined to become the Masters of the Land, we determined also that we would commit no similar fault.

"Therefore in each generation three among us are selected to be the Humbled, so that the Masters will not neglect their resolve, or set it aside. Our hands are severed to resemble Korik's, and Sill's, and Doar's. Among our people, we embody the error which destroyed the service of the Bloodguard. While the Humbled live, the Masters will not forget their peril."

The Masters describe "ire at the destruction of the Unhomed" as a mistake! They blame the whole breaking of the Vow on the ill-conceived expression of passion.

At first blush, it sounds like the Masters are seeing a kinship with the mistake Elena made. She believed also that utter grief and despair could be channeled into Foul-slaying power, and hence she rose Kevin.

But there is more here to it. Earlier, Stave had quite elegantly described how the Bloodguard felt about Coercri.

In The Runes of the Earth was wrote:
"The Ramen cannot know how the Bloodguard loved the Giants. They cannot grasp how the hearts of the Bloodguard were rent by what had transpired. Therefore they presume to scorn our fall from faith."

Hearts rent. That is grief. The Bloodguard grieved for the Giants, because they had loved them. "Grief and regret. What else is there? Those are just other names for love."

So the passion of the three Bloodguard bearing the Illearth Stone to Ridjeck Thome was not just "ire". It was grief. The grief that bears witness to a love.

And this is the passion which the Masters consider to be a mistake. A mistake that they will never make again. The Humbled are the string tied around their finger so that they remember that mistake, and they are their promise not to make it again. The Masters have vowed never to grieve!

Perhaps unknowingly, by vowing to never grieve, they have vowed never to love. Love only inspires grief; to avoid grief, avoid love. This they can do easily. When you don't judge yourself by what you love, but by deeds and service, then it's easy to forgo love. Especially when you convince yourself that your deeds and service are enough.

And so: simony.

This is why the Masters fear to grieve. They consider passion in general, and grief in particular, exactly the same way as they consider Earthpower. It's a power that cannot be trusted. It breaks vows. It diminishes service. It serves Foul. So: never again.

In The Runes of the Earth was wrote:
And she knew that Handir had not told her the whole truth. He had said nothing of his people's fear that they would be taken by the passion which had overcome Cail as well as Korik, Sill, and Doar. Liand was right about the Masters. They feared to grieve.

These passages make a whole lot more sense to me now.
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