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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points

I think it pertinent that you identified the focus on how LF and TC are different. They are absolutely different. One an immortal entity .. one mortal .. and the differences progress exponentially from there.

Not sure about TC hoping to teach LF something .. but definitely TCs embracing somehow all that LF is .. is a rather jarring concept. From the POV of their variable differences particularly. But in the Land TC is capable of being more than he was ever in our world. So theres that.

The wild magic power that TC was able to access and exercise from white gold and EVERYTHING ELSE that shaped his capability in the Land ... I guess that enabled him to finally absorb LF .. but teach him? 🤷‍♀️

LF has existed for generations of time .. what could TC possibly teach him that would affect actual change in him? Change in his ultimate drive to escape the AoT?

What would TC teach him?

The mere fact of absorbing his essence would offer the necessary degree of containment .. but would it make LF teachable? Changeable?

More than likely the affect of absorbing his essence would force it to be combined with a different dynamic that likely has never been part of LF throughout his entire existence.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never finished reading the Last Dark, so can't comment with any specificity.
It does seem like TC is just putting the genie back in the bottle - LF being the germ cell or leprosy bacillus.

Watta jip!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What else did you expect him to do?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

End it. What do you think!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't destroy Despite. That's been a premise since the beginning.

Not to mention: if you think about how Covenant's response to Foul should be informing us about how we should be responding to our own dark impulses and the evil we find in the world, then "end it" is a quite horrifying conclusion.

Vraith's point about Foul's infinite pain is a good one. Donaldson, at one point, stated that the Last Chronicles would show us Foul's point of view, explain his actions. This never happened, and he has admitted that it wasn't actually possible. Who can understand a god? Well, if SRD isn't going to delve into Foul's motivations, then he certainly isn't going to be concerned about how Foul feels when he is accepted into Covenant.

However, I think there's one very important thing: Covenant is still Covenant. The essence of Lord Foul is within him, and it informs what he does, but Lord Foul is -NOT- alive as a personality, wondering what is going on. If you think that this is so, then you haven't admitted that they are completely merged. Consider: They are now one being. That being is still Covenant.

So why worry about how Foul feels about it?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
So why worry about how Foul feels about it?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
but Lord Foul is -NOT- alive as a personality, wondering what is going on. If you think that this is so, then you haven't admitted that they are completely merged. Consider: They are now one being. That being is still Covenant.

So why worry about how Foul feels about it?


I don't have the book with me so can't check...
But I'm at least 97.5% confident TC himself, post-absorption, SAID [paraphrasing] "Maybe I can teach him something."

And because of THAT, and a memory of TC saying things like he could feel him, it hurt, he was still struggling against him...and the way those things were said didn't seem, at least in my memory of them, to be anything like battling himself/his own dark side. He's not hearing/feeling the dark part of self or "the force," He's conversing with LF.
I could be mistaken. But I don't THINK so.
And I also think the "TC/LF are One [and always have been, really]" is often taken too literally, to concretely.
If we don't/can't hold the contradiction of same/separate in our reading the same way as hold BOTH "There was a history, Linden and companions changed that history." then we're missing a lot, flattening the story, making a meal into mcD's.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't get it guys. You'll have to explain it to me in plain English.
I know now that TC didn't rape Lena. Actually I've always known but haven't been able to see how it was done. Now I do, it changes everything. LF has a pecker and he is, or he was, a dirty old bastard.

So why you guys keep ignoring it?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh? Shocked Why do you suggest the rape didnt happen. Oh it happened. And Covenant did the raping. Because he was disoriented, didnt understand what was happening to him, thought he might have been dreaming ... all of that was his mistaken view of the circumstances.

It did happen, The only way it didnt happen and that would be if TC was right .. it wasnt real. He obviously came to accept that it was real .. ALL of it .. he fucked up mightily.

I truly believe it was the acceptance of his crime, his guilt that drove him eventually to his redemptive actions.

Ive never thought TC and LF are one .. theyre absolutely not. And weve looked at their seperate and variable differences.

TC is more than he was .. hes no longer just human .. and that is the only reason I believe that he could absorb or subjugate LF.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ignore it then. Stay in the dark. See if I care.
___________________________________________________

The real beauty of that particular chapter, in my view, is the location that the events took place. Especially the rock formation leading into the sandy shore by the river. The description of the rocks were as of some wrecked hull of a ship. To me, I'm reminded of the surreal remains of some prehistoric spider's nest.
But of course that is asking a lot. First things first!

The best clue is with the graveling placed purposefully into a scooped out pit in the sand. If it weren't for this seemingly innocuous task I would have no choice but to run with the pack in agreement.
You see those are the scenes that are not only tuff nuts to crack but lead to other and more tougher nuts. As is with any of Stephen Donaldson's stories, he doesn't make it any easier.

Another incredibly devious puzzle, one of SRD's other literary tricks, is when Birinair does something in the Catacomb's beneath Mt.Thunder just before the discovery of the Second Ward that mimics or mirrors something Covenant had previously done in Revelstone. Wards lead to other wards we are told.
But that is way off topic, and, first things first!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
I don't have the book with me so can't check...
But I'm at least 97.5% confident TC himself, post-absorption, SAID [paraphrasing] "Maybe I can teach him something."

In the Epilogue was wrote:
"And I'm carrying the Despiser around inside me. What he knows isn't a problem for me. I used to be part of the Arch of Time. But he's Lord Foul. If I let him, he might spit in your faces. Or he might find a way to use my ring. I hope I can persuade him to relax. Maybe I can even convince him to think of me as something more or better or at least kinder than his worst enemy."

I see what you're saying, Vraith. But Lord Foul can't be alive as a person trapped in Covenant's brain, for the simple reason that this defies 10 books worth of story. Which is about integration. Trapping the Despiser in a new cage isn't the ultimate answer to evil. It doesn't make Covenant a better or more whole person. Integration is and does.

I submit to you that Covenant's words quoted here make just as much sense if you think about it as Lord Foul being Covenant's own dark side, brought under control. He is Foul. Foul is he. The distinction is really about what kind of impulses and thoughts you let rule you. Speaking of the concept as "him" and "I" is merely a shorthand for "those impulses and feelings which Lord Foul would have chosen" and "those impulses and feelings which I would have chosen".

Certainly we agree that Covenant has "access" to what Foul knows, what he remembers, etc. Rather against Foul's will, I would suggest. And here Covenant hints that it's possible for Foul to act through him. This indicates that, to some degree, they are not separate beings any longer. They are, at least, intertwined in a penetrating and complete way.

Maybe you're right. But I need not be wrong.

I also agree that the "oneness" of Covenant and Foul is not always literal. But I am thinking that, it did not start out that way, but it became more and more true over time ... and that's the beauty of the whole thing.

((Don't forget the "leak" reported by W.A. Senior: The End of Last Chronicles Spoilt!!))
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lazy Luke wrote:
Well ignore it then. Stay in the dark. See if I care.
___________________________________________________

The real beauty of that particular chapter, in my view, is the location that the events took place. Especially the rock formation leading into the sandy shore by the river. The description of the rocks were as of some wrecked hull of a ship. To me, I'm reminded of the surreal remains of some prehistoric spider's nest.
But of course that is asking a lot. First things first!

The best clue is with the graveling placed purposefully into a scooped out pit in the sand. If it weren't for this seemingly innocuous task I would have no choice but to run with the pack in agreement.
You see those are the scenes that are not only tuff nuts to crack but lead to other and more tougher nuts. As is with any of Stephen Donaldson's stories, he doesn't make it any easier.

Another incredibly devious puzzle, one of SRD's other literary tricks, is when Birinair does something in the Catacomb's beneath Mt.Thunder just before the discovery of the Second Ward that mimics or mirrors something Covenant had previously done in Revelstone. Wards lead to other wards we are told.
But that is way off topic, and, first things first!


??????

Ignore what? And what Shocked ..?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

Maybe you're right. But I need not be wrong.

I also agree that the "oneness" of Covenant and Foul is not always literal. But I am thinking that, it did not start out that way, but it became more and more true over time ... and that's the beauty of the whole thing.


Yea. And the other way round, too.
I tend to think of them as an emulsion...separable/unstable without effort/energy.
A better mix than SHE with those she chowed down on...but not unity/identity.
And THAT---the ONGOING, endless effort/work/necessary process---is the beauty of it.
Because "They are one, they always were" is no different than the ending of Lost, or "and then he woke up."
It's even worse than that if the whole world and all the characters are just aspects of him.
[[and just a twist that makes me laugh---if/when TC does integrate LF....does that mean the books are no longer fantasy? Or just the future-stories? Chron's 4 would be "The Fault in Our Cars" "Two former-lepers, cured but missing feeling and body parts take a road trip and discover..."[[based on the true story...]]]]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a [really good] book I once read, Aristoi, which had as a premise that people's minds included many sub-personalities in addition to a main one. And they were linked to certain traits. So, for example, your "artsy" sub-personality could "take control" while you were trying to be artistic. Or it could be consigned to think about an art project in your subconscious while you were doing something more mundane.

In the story, you could almost think of them as individuals. But at times it becomes very clear that they are not - they are just different aspects of you. Semi-autonomous parts of your mind with a different way of thinking (like we think about left-brain and right-brain stuff), different talents available on demand, different world views. On the other hand, they are not whole enough to be an independent person - they are shallow and narrowly-focused and easily knocked aside.

An analogy would be rooms in a house. There's a room you like to read in, there's a room you like to sleep in, there's a room you like to build furniture in. It's all one house, and it's all yours, but there are certain parts that are better for certain things.

I cannot help but think about this as I think about the Covenant/Foul merger. Aristoi completely informs how I view this: Foul is now (as I see it) a sub-personality of Covenant. They're not equals by any means - Covenant is in control, and Foul is subservient. The notion that Lord Foul had to be reduced (by She) before he could be integrated reinforces this idea.

You can sometimes think of Foul as another individual, but he's not. But he can be tapped to do things that are Foul-ey things to do. He could "take control" for a while; he can work in your subconscious. But he's not an autonomous being any more - he's not a being whose imprisoned in another. He's now "part of" Covenant -- with everything that this implies. He's a "part", but he's "Covenant" yet.

Do you think that Covenant could have "accepted" Lord Foul if they had no relationship at all prior to the event? I don't think so. I think it only worked because Foul and Covenant were already so close to being One. What they did was the icing on the cake - they completed a process that was already begun. They made incarnate what was already spiritually and ethically manifest.

Why do you think the Second and Final Chronicles were so full of stories of "consuming" and "devouring" ? Nom consumed Sheol. The Harrow tried to consume Linden. The One Forest consumed the Appointed. The New Staff consumed another. Etc. Etc. Each of these stories, in unison, prepares us for exactly what Covenant does to Foul. The Consumer is improved by the Consumed, but the Consumer is who remains an individual. The Consumed is now just a set of skills and memories available to the Consumer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL To the "fault in our cars" Laughing

Flippancy aside..

Interesting points Wayfriend .. as always Big Grin

Your consumption parallels require a superior entity consuming another .. is TC THAT powerful now .. and if he consumes FOUL who is akin to a god .. does that make TC akin to the Creator that summoned him to the Land

Maybe after his death and sort of immortalising he is .. but I would have thought of his status as being akin to Kevins?

I like your integration and oneness theory but it somehow weakens the power and status of LF as THE antagonist ..

Though if you are right .. it is what it is I suppose.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
There's a [really good] book I once read, Aristoi,


Off-topic...in that one, did the higher class [[at least some of them??]]have a...I'm trying to remember and describe this, it's all fuzzy in my brain...a sort of gesture/body-language/hand-signs thing where they could control/order some under-folk around? The sign/pose went straight past their consciousness/volition?

[[I know I've read Aristoi sometime...I'm just not sure if that was in it, too???]
]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Huh? Shocked Why do you suggest the rape didnt happen. Oh it happened. And Covenant did the raping. Because he was disoriented, didnt understand what was happening to him, thought he might have been dreaming ... all of that was his mistaken view of the circumstances.

It did happen, The only way it didnt happen and that would be if TC was right .. it wasnt real. He obviously came to accept that it was real .. ALL of it .. he fucked up mightily.


I was reluctant to say that he was dreaming. That a Raver entered his mind and filled it with nightmare horror's of violence and rape. That might also suggest that two Raver's were involved, the other entering Lena's mind with identical horrors. This is too speculative (based on the underlying evidence found at the Calling of Fire Lions).

I see now that is was a dream.
Oddly, this was made clear to me while working on a piece of music for an imaginary movie scene, (where Covenant has fallen asleep at the foot of Kevin's Watch under the effects of Lena's hurtloam). It occurred to me that Covenant's dreaming may not necessitate pure speculation.

Lord Foul makes mistakes. Raping Llaura and Peitten was one such mistake.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Off-topic...in that one, did the higher class [[at least some of them??]]have a...I'm trying to remember and describe this, it's all fuzzy in my brain...a sort of gesture/body-language/hand-signs thing where they could control/order some under-folk around? The sign/pose went straight past their consciousness/volition?]

Yes. Mudras.

Wikipedia wrote:
For example, they are conditioned to respond to certain mudras or hand signals with specified emotional and physical reactions. A skillful practitioner can employ these poses and signals to manipulate others without their knowledge.

Which gives us this delightful line:
In Aristoi was wrote:
"Gabriel flashed him the one-fingered Mudra of Contempt."

Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lazy Luke wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
Huh? Shocked Why do you suggest the rape didnt happen. Oh it happened. And Covenant did the raping. Because he was disoriented, didnt understand what was happening to him, thought he might have been dreaming ... all of that was his mistaken view of the circumstances.

It did happen, The only way it didnt happen and that would be if TC was right .. it wasnt real. He obviously came to accept that it was real .. ALL of it .. he fucked up mightily.


I was reluctant to say that he was dreaming. That a Raver entered his mind and filled it with nightmare horror's of violence and rape. That might also suggest that two Raver's were involved, the other entering Lena's mind with identical horrors. This is too speculative (based on the underlying evidence found at the Calling of Fire Lions).

I see now that is was a dream.
Oddly, this was made clear to me while working on a piece of music for an imaginary movie scene, (where Covenant has fallen asleep at the foot of Kevin's Watch under the effects of Lena's hurtloam). It occurred to me that Covenant's dreaming may not necessitate pure speculation.

Lord Foul makes mistakes. Raping Llaura and Peitten was one such mistake.


Ive never heard such a specifically detailed theory of this nature before. Do you still think it was a dream? Or do you realise that with every revelation of reality this alternative world presented Covenant .. that it was indeed a visceral part of that reality?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were any other type of book that didn't have a Dark Lord who was a liar and a cheat, trying to utterly destroy something beautiful, who uses evil spirits as his lieutenants to do his bidden, then, I would conceed to the evidence shown. But this isn't an ordinary book. So I took on the great challange of taking Thomas Covenant's side, against the enemy, Lord Foul.

After a long long time I can now see without a shadow of doubt (based on the cunningly hidden evidence *highlighted elsewhere on KW) that Thomas Covenant did not rape Lena.

*Spoiler: You must ask yourself what is the purpose of the Fire Lions.
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