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So What's the Flaw?

 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: So What's the Flaw? Reply with quote

There are two aspects that the various creation myths of the Land more or less agree on: anything that lives must contain the seed of its own destruction; and every creation must have a flaw - it cannot be simply perfect.

I think we're meant to assume that the Worm, having been put back to sleep, is still the means of the recreated Earth's ultimate destruction.

But what might be the flaw in the work of Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't Despite's spirit, embedded within Covenant a giant, obvious flaw? Sure, Covenant is optimistic about the whole thing but for one thing, as an idealof a negative trait, how much can Despite change and going by his many past successes in subverting and destroying anything beautiful that stood in his way, how safe are Covenant and the new Creation in the long term?

Also there are the known evils: the rest of the banes Foul created, the remaining raver, maybe Skurj that remained in the north and of course the Sarangrave (might become antsy if its supply of evil waters stops flowing out of Mount Thunder)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That in re-creating the Earth, thay didn't eliminate the skurj, the croyel, or moksha Jehannum.

[Edit: I apparently posted the same minute as shadowbinding shoe, so didn't see his reply until submitting. Good post, Shoe!]
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well yeaaa..as pointed out, there is the assumption that a host of nasties have survived into the new world order of the Land..Its safe to assume , because of the " deals" forged in TLD..that even the stagnate stinking Lifeswallower and Lurker and fans survived..Lots of nasty there,,yet,,as in The Lurker,,another side was made visible.

So..flaw in a redefined world where a nasty can be good..Linden says it the 2nd chapter of part two.." My greatest fear is not being BRAVE ENOUGH ..to do.. when there something I can do...There is the flaw...COMPLACENCY..STAGNATION....Perfection is the flaw..or more accurately..the Belief that Perfection has been achieved...A classic conundrum if there is ever one..Leading to the mobius strip concept of..the only thing that is constant, is change.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you're forgetting the rule...with White Gold one CAN do perfect magic, because it is an alloy/paradox in itself.

And of course LF in TC is related to that: he's evil, but we need him.

And the Worm is the ultimate expression...the end of the world...of the mundane/everyday necessary flaw. Beauty fades, people die. You point at that yourself. The world, and everything in it, are fundamentally mortal. Even the Elohim, I think.

That's more than enough flaws for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think we need to distinguish between flaws (=imperfection) and evil. One way of thinking about this is in terms of the challenge that Covenant sets the Haruchai to distinguish between failure and unworth.

I've promised a post that explores this theme more thoroughly in relation to the original nature of Lord Foul. However, a living creation, comprising thinking beings with the capacity to make their own choices, by definition can't be flawless, timeless, static perfection. Flawless, timeless, static perception is what we find in Foul's Creche in TPTP, and it expresses Foul's misconception (or "curdling") of the original eternal principle he represents.

Beings like the Ravers and (probably) the croyel, and banes like the Illearth Stone, could only have come into being after Foul had fallen from his original nature to Despite.

The skurj are another matter. We're given tips in The Last Chronicles that they aren't essentially evil, and are probably best described as "feral" (like the Sandgorgons and the arguleh) but like much else have been corrupted (in which case they could, in principle, be uncorrupted).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:

Beings like the Ravers and (probably) the croyel, and banes like the Illearth Stone, could only have come into being after Foul had fallen from his original nature to Despite.

You've got a problem to address there. While being trapped in the Arch was torture for LF, and almost surely made him worse, he actually "fell" before he was in the world...before the world was even finished being made. He was thrown down into the Arch BECAUSE he had placed banes in the earth during its making. While he was still outside.
You might argue that LF knew the banes were part of a necessary flaw for the world to succeed, and the Creator was just so mad that he didn't give LF time to explain himself. It's said that LF acted as he did out of spite/hate...but that information comes to us from partisan sources, perhaps? Biased/unreliable narrators?

On an earlier point you made: I think a case could easily be made [and an explorable reversal of something I said] that choice, change, endings, are, nearly by definition, features...positive aspects...of a creation, not a flaw.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does a world really need to be tainted with horrors and evil to be a well made creation? I suppose it makes a more interesting dramatic story for readers of its tales and the Creator could be classified as such a being I suppose but for the denizens of the world does it contribute positively to their life experience?

Judeo-Christian theology sales us the idea that the hardships and evils of this world are a kind of testing ground where you get the chance to prove yourself before the important post mortem part of your existence begin. Even if your life is horrible, next to the eternity you experience in your next life it becomes insignificant and therefore 'okay'. Well in the Land there is some sort of existence after death. We see the spirits of the dead often enough in the series but it seems like their defining experiences are all from their times as mortals.

I don't think the chance to triumph against evils, satisfactory as it may feel (to the few who aren't destroyed by it) makes up for the horrors they experience in the process. Life can be interesting and yes, challenging without axe-murderers, pedofiles and rapists lurking in every corner, not for the individual and not even for the societies they make up.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Does a world really need to be tainted with horrors and evil to be a well made creation?

I don't think anyone knows that for sure, in conceptual/philosophical terms.
In real life, I tend to think people who say
"No light without dark,
No white without black
No good without evil"
Have a damn weak argument...I'm not sure it is argument at all, just assertion.
I have yet to see, anywhere, a single instance of "evil" in the entire existence of the world that wasn't invented/created/enacted/defined by people.
The universe just pronounces an infinite "Not Applicable" on these issues.
So if it's all about people...well the idea that there are no good people without evil people is ludicrous. No one would accept it in the form
"There couldn't be good mothers if there weren't evil mothers" or
"There couldn't be good mathematicians if there weren't evil mathematicians."

But the idea makes perfect sense, and may be necessary, in works like this.

And helll, most of the evil wasn't really all that bad, and manageable by people, if it weren't for LF's presence in the world.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadowbinding shoe wrote:
Does a world really need to be tainted with horrors and evil to be a well made creation?

I know Donaldson talked of "seeds of it's own destruction". Specifically referring to having the capacity to self-destruct.

Such things might very well appear as horrors to us. For example, the Worm.

If you add a dash of drama and "psychodrama", this capacity might be Lord Foul, or Ravers, or Illearth Stone, what have you. But it's debatable whether or not Lord Foul et al fill this role. They weren't intended to be in the Earth; theoretically, the Earth would be fine without them. And Lord Foul has his own role to fill, which is not as Destruction, but as Self Hate. Unfortunately, Self Hate and Destruction often go hand in hand and are hard to distinguish. Many are the Guises of Evil.

You speak of a "testing ground", and that suggests battles against Lord Foul kinds of things - battles that are really against one's own dark side. There is no battling the Worm - Destruction is inevitable. However, the latter can be used as a pawn in the battle against the former, and so (again) they can be hard to distinguish.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rule??perfect magic..? WAit a second there..Avery gave up slaughtering living things with her Magic..Eventually TC also found other ways to deal with the ur-viles rather than the blood soaking slaughter of the Krill and Wild Magic..No,,I'm not confusing perfect with pure..Two different things..and yea,,not so perfect deeds can be done with Pure intentions...I don't believe the author ever directly said white gold magic was perfect..Pure, sure, but not perfect. ..TC holds back on the " pure white gold magic" because he knows ,,unleashed,,white gold magic can devastate,,and that is Lord Foul's wish,,for TC to bring the whole deal down with extravagant use of the Pure magic..That is something TC knows too well and struggles for a lot of Chronicles,,to not do..unleashing desecration..a not so perfect act. Or,,a perfect act in its degree of accomplishment as in Total..total desecration..But the question remains,,flaw? Its difficult to find a direction mention of any " flaw" in the epilogue. Its all " natural",,the natural cycle of birth and death is implied in the setting with its luxuriant healthyness. Reading that I could almost smell the fecundity of andelain...Perfection is non sequitor in the " natural state"..Perfection is not even the goal...So ,,yea, Foul is made part of the total, the whole, and thus controlled by the rest of the whole. Where is the flaw? its in plain sight marked by its absence..No where in the epilogue is the word " Perfect,",mentioned...Rather, its.."unearned knowledge, we're too dangerous,,we all need Time.",, suggesting anything but Perfection achieved..After all TC admits that yea..he is carrying Foul around inside of him..implying struggles to come. Not Perfect..Even TCs wish is not the absolute of Perfect..Alls he wishes for is that Foul relaxes enough to see TC as,,,not his worst enemy..Point being..its all growing, learning, etc..Theres no Perfect end .. So the flaw is..a perceptual thing..that one day a complacency, a stagnation ,prevails in the Land,,when learning, growing etc,,become set aside for...status quo.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
DrPaul wrote:

Beings like the Ravers and (probably) the croyel, and banes like the Illearth Stone, could only have come into being after Foul had fallen from his original nature to Despite.

You've got a problem to address there. While being trapped in the Arch was torture for LF, and almost surely made him worse, he actually "fell" before he was in the world...before the world was even finished being made. He was thrown down into the Arch BECAUSE he had placed banes in the earth during its making. While he was still outside.
You might argue that LF knew the banes were part of a necessary flaw for the world to succeed, and the Creator was just so mad that he didn't give LF time to explain himself. It's said that LF acted as he did out of spite/hate...but that information comes to us from partisan sources, perhaps? Biased/unreliable narrators?

On an earlier point you made: I think a case could easily be made [and an explorable reversal of something I said] that choice, change, endings, are, nearly by definition, features...positive aspects...of a creation, not a flaw.


A couple of points in reply:

1. The storyline in which Foul was cast down into the earth because he had created banes was IIRC related by Lord Tamarantha of the New Lords in LFB. In the course of the Chronicles we find that there are a number of different discourses about original Creation and Despite and the roles of the Creator, Foul and She, all of which provide some dimension of the truth yet none of which is entirely true in its own right.

Also, even if Tamarantha's account were entirely correct, we find that there are two "Falls" experienced by Foul: his fall from his original nature to being the maker of banes, and then his casting down from the Heavens to within the Arch of Time.

A further issue to consider is how the Fall of She fits into this, who is a bane after she has fallen, but is not a bane created or enabled by Foul.

2. "choice, change, endings, are, nearly by definition, features...positive aspects...of a creation, not a flaw"; this gets us back to the issue of what we mean by a "flaw" and the limitations of the word "flaw". The word can mean everything from, at one extreme, utter evil to at the other, a perfectly satisfactory state of being that is no longer quite satisfactory because of some change of circumstances or unforeseen challenge, or because someone imagines an alternative that might be better.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrPaul wrote:

1. The storyline in which Foul was cast down into the earth because he had created banes was IIRC related by Lord Tamarantha of the New Lords in LFB. In the course of the Chronicles we find that there are a number of different discourses about original Creation and Despite and the roles of the Creator, Foul and She, all of which provide some dimension of the truth yet none of which is entirely true in its own right.

A further issue to consider is how the Fall of She fits into this, who is a bane after she has fallen, but is not a bane created or enabled by Foul.


On the first...none is completely true, and aren't supposed to be. But almost all have some aspect of the "bad" preceding the full creation. [like the dark spot in the rainbow one]

On the second...LF is absolutely responsible for the SHE-bane. She wasn't "bad" in any way at all until she was trapped and driven insane by that trapping. And LF is the cause of that...SHE wouldn't be here, and wouldn't be crazy, if not for LF.

I'm not trying to persuade you that you are wrong [except about LF not being responsible for SHE becoming a bane]...
Just pointing out some things you need to look at very closely/take into account if you are going to abide by [emphasis mine]:
Dr.P wrote:

I've promised a post that explores this theme more thoroughly in relation to the original nature of Lord Foul.

Big Grin

And, something fun but tangential, that pops into my head once in a while...pure speculation, no answer possible...evil things didn't always HAVE to be evil, and even if they are now, they don't HAVE to remain so.
Were the croyel always evil? Need they always be? They are currently parasitic and dominating with a nasty bent [an intentional, conscious one...they are thinking beings]. Might they once have been symbiotic and more cooperative, and without the dark purpose? We know they can, sometimes will, do the first two [Kaseryn]. So only the ugly goal needs changing.
Could Jeremiah agree to host one, and change its ways? Deliver them from evil? He has had experiences and has displayed abilities that might be useful for such a thing

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what happened to the worm?
Was the worm the source of all magic in that world?
Was it's power leeched out while it slept?
How long did it take for it to permeate throughout the world.
Did the elohim suddenly formed when ,lets say, pockets of power condensed?
Recreating the world might have been a wrong term to use. TC, Linden and J might have re-assembled the world from the pieces that fractured at the end.
(just hope that TC and J constrained Linden, remember what happen when she
brought back Thomas? He was a bit cracked on the memory/mind side.)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
So what happened to the worm?


Having not read the The Last Dark my guess would be that the worm shrunk back down to the size of a bookworm, to begin again.

I'm sure the story of the Land is still incomplete. The detachment of Revelstone, Andelain, and Mt.Thunder, from the total mass and its journey across space has yet to be told.
For example, Grimmerdhore forest, I'm guessing, is left untouched and dark.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The final chapter of TLD does a pretty good job of explaining what became of the Worm after the climactic events of the prior chapter.

Read and find out.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No harm in guessing.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonder what Melekurion Skyweir looks like?
Is it's TC vision or Linden's?

You know Linden can be quite hard on her opinions.

In atto seconds the discussion could have gone like this:

Linden.. Yes.... a one peak mountain.

Thomas.. But Linden when I was here with Elena the mountain had two peaks.
It was said some cataclysmic event cause it to split.

Linden.. About that event.. I'll tell you about when we are finished. It's
got to have a single peak.

Jeremiah .. Tom.. don't argue.. Mom can be very adamant about things like that.
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