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Rebooting the Gun Control Discussion
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and if you look, when you remove suicide from the stats, the rate of gun violence drops 66%.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is disingenuous to include suicide numbers in the "gun deaths" statistic because that should be reserved for "person A shooting at person B" or "person A shooting at multiple people".

Of course, people only give a shit about "gun violence" when a news event happens. When a random person gets shot in Chicago--which happens with alarming regularity--no one cares. At all. Not even young Mr. Hogg, who recently attended some event alongside two armed guards--now there is irony for you.

An "active shooter" scenario also includes times when a student in a school pretends to have a gun or makes a reference to having a gun in their possession (even if only at home). No, I am not kidding.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:


Of course, people only give a shit about "gun violence" when a news event happens. When a random person gets shot in Chicago--which happens with alarming regularity--no one cares. At all. Not even young Mr. Hogg, who recently attended some event alongside two armed guards--now there is irony for you.



Havn't heard the latest on the fellow. Wasn't he suppose to walk in Chicago with the rest of the protestors? Or wasn't that a big enough event or they didn't
agree to give him an appearance fee?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh 🤷‍♀️

Death is death ... injuries are injuries

.. and who cannot see the irony of the Jamie Gilt, outspoken gun advocate .. shooting Rolling Eyes

She was shot in the back by her 4yr old son .. simply because she left a loaded gun, safety off .. in the back of the car, where he could get it Rolling Eyes

Quote:
My 4-year-old gets jacked up to target shoot, mom brags hours before he shoots her


Yeah .. way to go mum .. and isnt it the height of stupidity .. how do you combat stupidity? You cant. She should have known better, and done better .. Rolling Eyes

The fact is she failed to secure her firearm, and she could have faced charges of criminal negligence. Child Protection services were involved because it was unclear whether or not whether the child himself was secured in his booster seat .. let alone could access the fully loaded hand gun 🤷‍♀️

Quote:
In the deferred prosecution agreement reached with the state attorney's office in Sanford, Jamie Lynn Gilt, 31, agreed to complete a gun safety course, install a mounted holster in her vehicle and provide proof of safe storage of firearms in her home. Gilt also must give 10 speeches about the March 8 shooting and the need to safely secure firearms, according to a news release issued by the state attorney's office on Friday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-mom-jamie-lynn-gilt-prosecution-son-shooting-truck/

Some people shouldnt have kids or firearms Rolling Eyes

But you cant stop them .. can you?

This also would no doubt inflate the statistics on gun violence .. but you cant discriminate on what is included and what isnt .. its all gun violence .. whether it results in death or injury. And yes inflates the stats.

Gotta suck it up .. no? Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Some people shouldnt have kids or firearms Rolling Eyes


We see these people every day, unfortunately.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My view on this is brutally simple.

1. Would there be less accidental and deliberate gun deaths if there were no firearms in private hands (law-abiding or criminal) in the US? Well yes of course... duh.

2. Is the above ever going to happen? Nope.

3. So, would there be less accidental and deliberate gun deaths if there were a total ban on firearm private ownership in the US, which the law-abiding would then abide by? Yes, but...

4. What would the above mean? The bad guys would still have their guns and would still shoot other bad guys and shoot good guys - and probably more of the latter. The good guys wouldn't have guns, so a) there'd be no deterrent b) more crime and c) less bad guys would get shot by the good guys in self-defence/protection.

So, given the above (presuming it's correctly reasoned) and particularly given the extant state of affairs in the US, repealing the 2nd Amendment (like that's ever gonna happen) would lead to more crime, more good guys getting shot and less bad guys getting shot. (Although it would also lead to less good guys getting accidentally shot too).

Ergo, absolutely do not blanket restrict access to firearms in the US. It's the least shit answer in an already shitty situation.

Mind you, I have to comment on the bitter irony that, completely counter to its original intention, the most compelling reason I can see in favour of the 2nd Amendment is that the US citizenry needs the right to bear arms in order to have protection against itself - namely its criminal element, rather than against the government.

I'd still dramatically increase the stringency of checks and balances before allowing any purchase/ownership though - and I'd still heavily restrict access to - or possibly entirely ban - magazine-fitted semi automatic long guns, because I can't see the need for them.

And yes Cail, I entirely get your point that a constitutionally awarded right is not in any way dependant on an individual proving a need or coming up with any other sufficient justification, but still...

And I also don't expect a single pro-gun lobby member to agree with me either.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Mind you, I have to comment on the bitter irony that, completely counter to its original intention, the most compelling reason I can see in favour of the 2nd Amendment is that the US citizenry needs the right to bear arms in order to have protection against itself - namely its criminal element, rather than against the government.


I was once familiar with a left-leaning lawyer who lived in Chicago and despite his general anti-gun bias he owned a gun because he lived in Chicago.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Mind you, I have to comment on the bitter irony that, completely counter to its original intention, the most compelling reason I can see in favour of the 2nd Amendment is that the US citizenry needs the right to bear arms in order to have protection against itself - namely its criminal element, rather than against the government.


I was once familiar with a left-leaning lawyer who lived in Chicago and despite his general anti-gun bias he owned a gun because he lived in Chicago.

Precisely. It's tragically bizarre, isn't it? Unrestricted access to firearms in the US has led to a wide prevalence of firearms in the US, which means there needs to be continuing unrestricted access to firearms in the US, which leads to a greater prevalence of firearms in the US, which means that...

You get the drift. It's the perfect and unbreakable vicious circle. I'm not sure the Founding Fathers would be that happy, if they could see how things have transpired as a result of their admittedly well-intentioned Second Amendment.

But there's pretty much nothing that can realistically be done about it by now.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Precisely. It's tragically bizarre, isn't it? Unrestricted access to firearms in the US has led to a wide prevalence of firearms in the US, which means there needs to be continuing unrestricted access to firearms in the US, which leads to a greater prevalence of firearms in the US, which means that...
It's not the widespread prevalence of guns in Chicago that makes a person want to carry a gun, it's the widespread prevalence of thugs.


There are many cultures in the U.S. where widespread prevalence of guns is a comforting, reassuring phenomenon. Go to a gun show. Drive through rural America. Go to a rural Walmart and see people openly carrying. You won't see everyone looking over their shoulders expecting to get shot. You'll see friendly smiles and camaraderie. The mere presence of a gun doesn't necessitate that I have a gun. It's necessitated by the presence of criminals, gangs, and thugs. I wouldn't care if they were carrying knives or baseball bats, I'd still want a gun if I lived in their city. Your logic is faulty. The Founding Fathers would not regret their decision just because there are criminals in America. They would be celebrating the fact that they gave us the protection against these criminals.

Do you honestly think that people in Chicago would not feel the need for self-defense measures if we got rid of all the guns? It would still be a cesspool.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Precisely. It's tragically bizarre, isn't it? Unrestricted access to firearms in the US has led to a wide prevalence of firearms in the US, which means there needs to be continuing unrestricted access to firearms in the US, which leads to a greater prevalence of firearms in the US, which means that...
It's not the widespread prevalence of guns in Chicago that makes a person want to carry a gun, it's the widespread prevalence of thugs.
I had pretty much stated that a couple of posts back. It's guns being in the hands of bad guys (a thing facilitated by the overall widespread availability of guns) that makes the good guys being able to even the score and have their own guns so particularly and especially necessary in the US.

Zarathustra wrote:
The mere presence of a gun doesn't necessitate that I have a gun. It's necessitated by the presence of criminals, gangs, and thugs. I wouldn't care if they were carrying knives or baseball bats, I'd still want a gun if I lived in their city.
Okay I'll give you that (apart from your first sentence, because I never said that). But I suspect that the ease with which "criminals, gangs and thugs" can get their hands on guns exacerbates things

Zarathustra wrote:
The Founding Fathers would not regret their decision just because there are criminals in America. They would be celebrating the fact that they gave us the protection against these criminals.
And/or lamenting the fact that they'd also made it easy for those criminals to arm themselves so readily, maybe. Regardless, my earlier point that:-

the most compelling reason in favour of the 2nd Amendment is that the US citizenry needs the right to bear arms in order to have protection against itself - namely its criminal element, rather than against the government

stilll entirely stands, I believe. Being easily able to protect oneself by owning a firearm against one's fellow citizens (albeit the criminal ones) may be a happy (for a given value of "happy") coincidental result of the Second Amendment for today's world - but as we both know, it certainly wasn't the original core reason for that Amendment's formulation.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree that the 2nd amendment is what makes it easy for criminals to get guns. Most criminals don't have legal guns. They circumvent our laws and make use of the black market. If guns were illegal, it would be easier for criminals to get them than for law abiding citizens, so that the balance would shift in the favor of criminals without the 2nd amendment.

Now, granted, there might be fewer guns overall, even on the black market, if there were no 2nd amendment. But there would not be zero guns. And since law abiding citizens don't break the law (by definition), the criminals would still outgun us.

But let's imagine that there were zero guns even on the black market. Let's say knives were the weapon of choice (as in London). Do you really want to match a knife-wielding criminal with a knife of your own? I would rather get in a shootout than a knife fight . . . and the bigger the thug, the more this is true. Guns are equalizers. Little old ladies can defend themselves against thugs with a gun, whereas this is unrealistic with knives. So, in the zero gun scenario, the balance of power is always going to be with the thugs, even if we all have knives.

There is no way you can blame any of this on the 2nd amendment. Gun rights are the solution, not the problem. It has nothing to do with being stuck in a no-win loop. Gun rights are how we break out of the cycle of violence.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
I disagree that the 2nd amendment is what makes it easy for criminals to get guns. Most criminals don't have legal guns. They circumvent our laws and make use of the black market.
And I disagree with you. It would seem self-evident that, if there's a ready supply of a product within a market, it's easier to get hold of that product, albeit illegally. By stealing a weapon, by going to a dealer prepared to turn a blind eye to process, by sourcing at a gun show, by buying privately or by any number of other ways.

Zarathustra wrote:
If guns were illegal, it would be easier for criminals to get them than for law abiding citizens, so that the balance would shift in the favor of criminals without the 2nd amendment.
Yes, but the real point is that it would be far FAR harder for criminals to get their hands on them at all.

Zarathustra wrote:
Now, granted, there might be fewer guns overall, even on the black market, if there were no 2nd amendment. But there would not be zero guns. And since law abiding citizens don't break the law (by definition), the criminals would still outgun us.
Agreed - but in stressing that "outgunning", all you're doing is underlining my point (and I'll state it again) that:-

the most compelling reason in favour of the 2nd Amendment is that the US citizenry needs the right to bear arms in order to have protection against itself - namely its criminal element, rather than against the government

Zarathustra wrote:
But let's imagine that there were zero guns even on the black market. Let's say knives were the weapon of choice (as in London). Do you really want to match a knife-wielding criminal with a knife of your own? I would rather get in a shootout than a knife fight . . . and the bigger the thug, the more this is true. Guns are equalizers. Little old ladies can defend themselves against thugs with a gun, whereas this is unrealistic with knives. So, in the zero gun scenario, the balance of power is always going to be with the thugs, even if we all have knives.
This would seem to make sense - except if one looks at murder rates between the US and the UK... an old chestnut, I grant you, but an undoubtedly significant one. The fact remains that someone is roughly four and a half times more likely to get murdered in the US than in the UK according to these statistics. So despite there being the lack of "equalizers" in the UK, there is a very statistically significantly different and far lower murder rate. You don't think that's got anything to do with radically different gun ownership legislation and the resultant prevalence (or not) of firearms between the two nations? Really?

Zarathustra wrote:
There is no way you can blame any of this on the 2nd amendment. Gun rights are the solution, not the problem. It has nothing to do with being stuck in a no-win loop. Gun rights are how we break out of the cycle of violence.
I could not disagree more. Gun rights - which to a large extent I support in the US - represent the only halfway reasonable answer to an irresolvable problem caused by the widespread prevalence of guns in criminal hands the US, itself caused by the overall widespread prevalence of guns in the US, and that arising as a direct consequence of the Second Amendment. Guns are now how the law-abiding citizen may have a chance of protecting him- or herself against a cycle of violence being visited upon him or her.

Or to put it another way, the Second Amendment is a good thing now, because it provides the only viable semi-solution to an irreversible problem that it itself has unwittingly previously engendered. And there's no way out of that.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
If guns were illegal, it would be easier for criminals to get them than for law abiding citizens, so that the balance would shift in the favor of criminals without the 2nd amendment.
Yes, but the real point is that it would be far FAR harder for criminals to get their hands on them at all.
This makes no sense. Criminals don't legally buy guns, so if guns were illegal, that would have no impact on how criminals get guns.

Further, it's folly to compare US and British crime stats. There are 275,000,000 more people in the US. Britain is 50,301 square miles, the US is 3,797,000 square miles, and the US both far more diverse than Britain, and lacks the thousands of years of shared history that Britain has.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail, a few points.

If something is in wide and almost unconstrained supply so that it can be pretty easily legally obtained by the law-abiding, then just the mere fact of that something's prevalence, its wide and almost unconstrained supply, is going to make it far simpler for the non law-abiding to get their hands on the same illegally. So if there was an extremely constrained supply of firearms within a country from the get-go, it'd be more difficult for anyone to get firearms, whether legally or illegally.

Of course, my original statement about universal gun control making it harder for criminals to get guns presumes a zero start position and so is futile. As I've said before, the gun genie is long out of the bottle in the US, never to return and be recorked.

As to murder rates, the stats I quoted were of course per head of population, so neither relative population size nor relative geographical size matter. In fact, the UK's much smaller size leads to a much higher population density, so people on average live in far closer proximity to each other over here, if that is in any way relevant.

Your point about the US being "far more diverse" than the UK is interesting - especially when combined with your "thousands of years of shared history" statement. I think you're theorising that UK society may have less divisive fault lines, or less antagonistic sectarianism (whether ethnic or otherwise based) as a direct result of its much longer history as a nation, allowing its society to be more integrated?

I'm not sure you're right at all - any more than I think that this is at all the root explanation for the US's 4.5 times higher per capita murder rate. Far more likely to me would be the largely unrestricted prevalence of guns (i.e. easy killing machines) in the one nation compared to their extremely limited and heavily controlled presence in the other - but it's an assertion worth more thought.

(If that is indeed what you were suggesting).
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone can buy guns .. some purchased guns legally and become criminals, some buy off the black market, some steal .. but thats hardly the point.

Criminals will always find a way to get guns

But the US population is about 326 million and of that figure your incarcerated criminal population is maybe 3 million, lets say thats around a quarter of the criminal population .. .. it makes no sense to gear public policy around such a small percent of the population.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170928121641.htm

The above study provides that individuals with felony convictions represent about 3 percent of your population.

The US does not make firearms access difficult .. indeed the government facilitates access.

That means lots of gunsm, held by lots of people. Which means higher risk of and incidences of firearms injuries and firearms deaths .. whether self inflicted or otherwise.

Its not rocket science.

I forget now .. as its been some months since our last gun tet e tet but training in handling, storage etc is not a requirement as part of firearms access is it?

I guess it cant be if you can walk in to a gun show or a gun shop and walk out with a gun.

So you got a lot of people with guns and no mandated training and limited or no regulations requiring appropriate storage and or handling.

I get the wanting a gun for self defence .. sure .. but I don't not get not regulating conditions for their access, use or appropriate storage and maintenance.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Cail, a few points.

If something is in wide and almost unconstrained supply so that it can be pretty easily legally obtained by the law-abiding, then just the mere fact of that something's prevalence, its wide and almost unconstrained supply, is going to make it far simpler for the non law-abiding to get their hands on the same illegally. So if there was an extremely constrained supply of firearms within a country from the get-go, it'd be more difficult for anyone to get firearms, whether legally or illegally.
Narcotics are near-universally banned in the US, yet there's no problem getting them. Taking something that people want out of legitimate circulation doesn't make it any more difficult for a prohibited person to get.


TheFallen wrote:
As to murder rates, the stats I quoted were of course per head of population, so neither relative population size nor relative geographical size matter. In fact, the UK's much smaller size leads to a much higher population density, so people on average live in far closer proximity to each other over here, if that is in any way relevant.


Your point about the US being "far more diverse" than the UK is interesting - especially when combined with your "thousands of years of shared history" statement. I think you're theorising that UK society may have less divisive fault lines, or less antagonistic sectarianism (whether ethnic or otherwise based) as a direct result of its much longer history as a nation, allowing its society to be more integrated?[/quote]You certainly see that in the Scandinavian countries...and there's a fully automatic machine gun in every Swiss home. I'm not positing that there's no divisions in British society, rather that there are far more in the US, and given the size of the US, those differences are magnified. We're 5 or 6 different countries held together by the federal government.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Cail, a few points.

If something is in wide and almost unconstrained supply so that it can be pretty easily legally obtained by the law-abiding, then just the mere fact of that something's prevalence, its wide and almost unconstrained supply, is going to make it far simpler for the non law-abiding to get their hands on the same illegally. So if there was an extremely constrained supply of firearms within a country from the get-go, it'd be more difficult for anyone to get firearms, whether legally or illegally.
Narcotics are near-universally banned in the US, yet there's no problem getting them. Taking something that people want out of legitimate circulation doesn't make it any more difficult for a prohibited person to get.
Hmmmm. It's not that simple in my book. "Taking something that people want out of legitimate circulation" is obviously very different to "never having allowed free circulation of something in the first place" - the genie and the bottle thing.

Also, the UK has (of course) an illegal narcotics problem, but not an illegal gun possession problem of any significance whatsoever - despite it presumably being equally desired by criminals to get their hands on firearms over here.

Cail wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
As to murder rates, the stats I quoted were of course per head of population, so neither relative population size nor relative geographical size matter. In fact, the UK's much smaller size leads to a much higher population density, so people on average live in far closer proximity to each other over here, if that is in any way relevant.

Your point about the US being "far more diverse" than the UK is interesting - especially when combined with your "thousands of years of shared history" statement. I think you're theorising that UK society may have less divisive fault lines, or less antagonistic sectarianism (whether ethnic or otherwise based) as a direct result of its much longer history as a nation, allowing its society to be more integrated?
You certainly see that in the Scandinavian countries...and there's a fully automatic machine gun in every Swiss home. I'm not positing that there's no divisions in British society, rather that there are far more in the US, and given the size of the US, those differences are magnified. We're 5 or 6 different countries held together by the federal government.
That's again an interesting statement - and one that's almost worthy of its own thread - is the US ever fated - or at least fated for the foreseeable future - to be more divided because of its sheer size? Have you guys then got a number of effectively low level civil wars - or at least lots of regionalised civil tension - going on all the time, because of this?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
Cail wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
Cail, a few points.

If something is in wide and almost unconstrained supply so that it can be pretty easily legally obtained by the law-abiding, then just the mere fact of that something's prevalence, its wide and almost unconstrained supply, is going to make it far simpler for the non law-abiding to get their hands on the same illegally. So if there was an extremely constrained supply of firearms within a country from the get-go, it'd be more difficult for anyone to get firearms, whether legally or illegally.
Narcotics are near-universally banned in the US, yet there's no problem getting them. Taking something that people want out of legitimate circulation doesn't make it any more difficult for a prohibited person to get.
Hmmmm. It's not that simple in my book. "Taking something that people want out of legitimate circulation" is obviously very different to "never having allowed free circulation of something in the first place" - the genie and the bottle thing.

Also, the UK has (of course) an illegal narcotics problem, but not an illegal gun possession problem of any significance whatsoever - despite it presumably being equally desired by criminals to get their hands on firearms over here.
Again, there are so many differences in our cultures, that it's damn near impossible to compare our societies. Our country is a bit over 200 years old, and the entire colonization of the land only stretches back about 500 years. 350 of those years were marked by bloody conquest....You chaps haven't had to do that since what, the Gauls? Further, there's that whole, "stiff-upper-lip" mentality that we just don't have.

Even though we're from you, we're markedly different from you. The foundation of our nation, our identity, and our culture was born out of revolution and conquest.

TheFallen wrote:
Cail wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
As to murder rates, the stats I quoted were of course per head of population, so neither relative population size nor relative geographical size matter. In fact, the UK's much smaller size leads to a much higher population density, so people on average live in far closer proximity to each other over here, if that is in any way relevant.

Your point about the US being "far more diverse" than the UK is interesting - especially when combined with your "thousands of years of shared history" statement. I think you're theorising that UK society may have less divisive fault lines, or less antagonistic sectarianism (whether ethnic or otherwise based) as a direct result of its much longer history as a nation, allowing its society to be more integrated?
You certainly see that in the Scandinavian countries...and there's a fully automatic machine gun in every Swiss home. I'm not positing that there's no divisions in British society, rather that there are far more in the US, and given the size of the US, those differences are magnified. We're 5 or 6 different countries held together by the federal government.
That's again an interesting statement - and one that's almost worthy of its own thread - is the US ever fated - or at least fated for the foreseeable future - to be more divided because of its sheer size? Have you guys then got a number of effectively low level civil wars - or at least lots of regionalised civil tension - going on all the time, because of this?
I'd love to see the country dismantled. I know that's a provocative statement, but it's how I feel. We're ungovernable at this size unless we become totalitarian. Lincoln screwed up royally by forcing the Confederacy back.....Everything since then has led us to the point we're at now. I think the same sort of stubbornness or inertia will hold the Union together for a while, but eventually there's going to be a major uprising. People are sick of this divisive shit. No one other than the sore losers cares one whit about, "Russian collusion", because we know it didn't happen. The progressive left is pushing us to destroy ourselves, and while I abhor their anger and hate, I also recognize that the country needs to come apart if the American way of life has any chance of surviving another century. Let the progressives have their little country, and we can all watch them run it into the ground.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely worth its own thread!

Your points re historical and sociocultural differences are well made and I believe accurate. Oh for info, the last home soil invasion this island underwent and subsequently assimilated was back in 1066, when William the Conqueror came in with his Norman's to subjugate the then resident largely Anglo-Saxon population. There were plenty of Celtic, Pictish and Viking bloodlines around back then as well.

(I'll ignore the Nazi occupation of the Channel Islands in WW2, because that was offshore and only lasted a few years before they got kicked out).

If it's any comfort (which I doubt), the British isles got invaded and settled repeatedly by varying tribes between the year dot and 1066 (which is why the English language is as rich as it is, with all its many sources to draw upon). Now a millennium later, it's largely settled down and isn't too divided. Maybe these things just take a good deal of time?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No question they take time. And because, unlike Canada and Oz, we utterly rejected British society and governance, we're still sorting out things.

What's clear though is that we've solved so many major problems, we're dreaming up "problems" that need "fixing". We had, and continue to have, major, vicious, national discussions over what fucking bathroom and pronouns to use. We had, and continue to have, major, vicious, national discussions over whether or not you should have to prove who you are in order to vote. We had, and continue to have, major, vicious, national discussions over whether or not people who aren't citizens should be able to vote.

Which is why I say that we should just give the progressives the entire West Coast. Let them have their silly debates, while the adults go about the business of running a country.
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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