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Arrest the Pope
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TheFallen
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
Assumptions??
How hard is it to use wikileaks? Put in search criteria get lists of pages.
Anybody with a computer can do that.
I went for Google and Wikipedia, rather than Wikileaks.

The only article I could find that quoted anything like the stats you alleged was one published in Australia and specifically about Australia. Hence why I asked you for your sources.

Saying "google it" is not an adequate response and merely makes what you say another unsupported allegation (the exact type of thing which ironically you then go on to quite rightfully criticise in your following posts). Leaving that to one side...

Ur Dead wrote:
The pope can decree a statement about the abusive priests but the other bishops don't have to obey it.

Thats why it need to be civil action.
Yes, I completely agree on both counts.

However, just because the other bishops might not obey the Pope does NOT mean that the Pope shouldn't give clear and unequivocal guidance. The Pope needs to make both his own and the Catholic Church's official position a whole lot less ambiguous - and I can't for the life of me see why he wouldn't want to. His current lack of clarity of statement and ongoing inaction unfortunately lends extra credence to the Vigano allegations.

And yes instances or allegations or suspicions of child abuse absolutely need to be dealt with by the civil authorities, but with the full aid and assistance of and full disclosure from the Catholic Church hierarchy (save - sadly - anything falling under the Confessional Seal). Those instances or allegations or suspicions NEED REPORTING to the civil authorities first of all.

Now I of course don't place the whole burden of responsibility for the actions of all (or in fact, any) within the Catholic hierarchy on Pope Francis. He should only be held accountable for his own actions - whether ones of omission or commission. But if he is proven to have been complicit in protecting and concealing McCarrick, then yes, he would be a knowing accessory after the fact to a crime. HOWEVER that's not been proven as yet.

What the Pope can however do - and what IMV he is morally beholden to do - is to clearly enunciate Church policy. What should priests do when either witnessing, or hearing allegations of child abuse? There can be no doubt that at least Pope Francis should make the Church's policy crystal clear - inform the relevant secular agency and offer full assistance and disclosure to any subsequent investigation by secular authorities.

Sure, he can't compel those lower down the hierarchy to obey him - but he can make it very clear to other priests and adherents alike that their moral duty is to report... and NOT just internally.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have stayed silent because to me this subject is sensitive and complex. I also respect Catholic's and I respect the people that post here supporting the Catholic church.

I do not wish to offend but I cannot escape which many postings have posted before me. However, I want to add my two cents and hope that may raise a thought or two.

I have read the more recent immigration thread. There are many postings about different news articles and various Catholic leaders thoughts and ideas and calls to action about the immigration issue.

Can the Catholics not see or understand the value is there were just as many articles about the sex abuse scandals - calls to action - thoughts for reformation - leaders decrying the horrible actions and inactions. Just imagine the same amount of posts from all over the world that we are seeing in the immigration thread about the sexual abuse scandal. Perhaps there are many articles and they are just not being posted here in KW - my guess is probably not.

In this case tone does matter. Messaging is important. A constant diligence and outcry and calls for action and for some thoughtfulness is needed. I have worked for many corporations and they have all had people (or at least one person) responsible for image and image control. Catholics can start tiny steps just by churning the articles out about the sexual abuse scandal and having leaders from all over the world chiming in.

Please consider it. My two cents.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, there are a handful of stories about the ongoing scandal(s) on many of Wos's propaganda sites. Granted, he won't post them, and granted they're not at all condemning of the church or its members, but they're there.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice sentiments, but the church is probably hoping all the noise over immigration will help sweep the sex abuse stories under the rug like they are used to doing.

There aren't many of us here and there are many websites/news sources we miss. We do what we can; nothing more may be expected of us.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now it looks like civil action has convince the religious group to bend.

https://www.whio.com/news/local/apnewsbreak-2nd-ohio-diocese-release-abusive-priest-list/BpY6w9YEpEJ4PFPCLB5dbL/

[I get errors when trying to post contents of the story- like WTF]

Quote:
The U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops approved a zero-tolerance policy
called the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People in 2002 in
the midst of a national scandal over the church's failure to address and, in
some cases cover up, sexual abuse and misconduct by priests. The policy
required dioceses to alert authorities when they learned of abuse allegations,
conduct their own investigations and remove accused priests from their duties
during such reviews.


Was able to C&P this part.
Remember what I said about the Bishops? The heads of the dioceses
in the US they took action back 15 years ago. You don't need the Pope to bring the church in line. It's the bishops that will bring the Pope and Church in line.
Now the policy is only valid in the US, like governments the Church in one
country does not set policy for the church in other countries.
Those Bishops have to come to a joint agreement. Then as one voice they
force the pope to join and speak with authority.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind, as I posted earlier, the absolute vast majority of the cases coming to light happened decades ago. Most of the offenders are deceased. What you are primarily seeing are old cases now coming into the public light. The screening process of priest and deacons was tightened up considerably back in 2002, and the laity has been informed, and continues to be informed that if someone in the clergy, or even the laity who works for some aspect of the Church (teachers, admin. etc), to report them to the civil authorities.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the reference to the need for civil action and the point around the screening process or transition as a result of old cases coming to light must be considered.
It will always take a while for a policy to shake its way through an organisation. The bigger the organisation the longer it will take.
So that is where the how it is measured becomes important. If "it" is the betrayal of the trust of a child, then measuring "it" to draw comparisons would require continual restrospective review.
If the atrocities were measured in 2018, there may have been none committed in 2018, but 33 were just now reported as having happened in 1988, and 42 just now reported as having happened in 1992 and so on.

On the Vigano point, and should he be charged for knowing of McCarricks abuses and having done nothing about it:
Vigano definitely delegated the problem up instead of reporting it to legal authorities. Delegating up is a lazy bastards approach.
On reflection I don't think he can be charged for being complicit because he wasn't aware of the crime as it was happening, but became aware of it afterwards. The question "Did Vigano take steps to conceal the information?" would need answering. By reporting it internally or "delegating up" he should not be exonerated entirely. Surely this is still a form of withholding information or obstructing justice considering the church does not manage or maintain civil law.

Spiritual law and the interpretation of the bible versus civil law and the court of civil jurisdiction.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:

However, just because the other bishops might not obey the Pope does NOT mean that the Pope shouldn't give clear and unequivocal guidance. The Pope needs to make both his own and the Catholic Church's official position a whole lot less ambiguous - and I can't for the life of me see why he wouldn't want to.


Agreed. He should be out there saying he, and by extension the church, won't stand for this. And perhaps with unequivocal guidance from the Pope, more of the lower hierarchies will feel comfortable with reporting etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silence from Wosbald....
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he holds to his typical posting pattern he will wait until some pro-catholic op-ed gets published then link the article rather than typing out opinions or insights of his own.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More silence from Wos....DC diocese releases names of 31 kid-diddling priests.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
More silence from Wos....DC diocese releases names of 31 kid-diddling priests.

No the archdiocese released the names of 31 men, half of whom are dead, where there is credible evidence (pretty much the same language as in a Grand Jury indictment) that they abused children between the years of 1948 and 1996. Several were arrested and so can try to defend themselves in a court of law if enough evidence comes forth for a conviction.


And while I certainly hope that anyone who sexually abused a child is convicted; after decades, it's gonna be find witness's to reliably verify or invalidate the accusations.

on a side note, I'm assuming that you still believe in the presumption of innocence under the law, even if you personally think they are lying scumbags......
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I do. I'm not a court of law though.

And if other catholics were willing to at least address the issue as you have, I might have a bit more respect for both them and their religion.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

U.S. Bishops Had a Plan to Curb Sex Abuse. Rome Ordered Them to Wait.

Quote:
Facing a reignited crisis of credibility over child sexual abuse, the Roman Catholic bishops of the United States came to a meeting in Baltimore on Monday prepared to show that they could hold themselves accountable.

But in a last-minute surprise, the Vatican instructed the bishops to delay voting on a package of corrective measures until next year, when Pope Francis plans to hold a summit in Rome on the sexual abuse crisis for bishops from around the world.

Many of the more than 350 American bishops gathered in Baltimore appeared stunned when they learned of the change of plans in the first few minutes of the meeting.

They had come to Baltimore wanting to prove that they had heard their parishioners' cries of despair and calls for change. Suddenly, the Vatican appeared to be standing in the way, dealing the bishops another public relations nightmare.

"We are not ourselves happy about this," Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of Houston, the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, said at a midday news conference. "We are working very well to move to action, and we'll do it. We just have a bump in the road."

The order from Rome is the latest twist in a long power struggle between the American bishops and the Vatican over how to respond to the abuse crisis. For nearly three decades and three papacies, the United States has been the focal point of the crisis, and the American bishops have been pushed to the forefront of the church's response.

The Vatican also applied the brakes in 2002 when the Americans took steps that had not been adopted by the global church, like establishing a "zero tolerance" standard for abusive priests and a national review board made up of laypeople.

The new delay was immediately denounced on Monday by abuse survivors and advocates who had traveled to Baltimore from across the country to put pressure on bishops to take action.

"This is a disaster, and I think it's a dark day for Catholics, especially victims and survivors," said Anne Barrett Doyle, co-director of BishopAccountability.org, a research and advocacy group based in Boston, "When the Vatican intervenes, regulations get weaker, not stronger."

Peter Isely, an abuse survivor from Wisconsin and leader of Ending Clergy Abuse, an advocacy group, said in an interview: "This is a completely cowardly decision by the American bishops. They could still vote on it, and let the Vatican rescind the votes."

Many Catholic commentators have called the abuse scandal the greatest crisis in the Catholic church since the Reformation.

Since June, a prominent American cardinal has been forced to resign, a Pennsylvania grand jury has found that 300 priests had abused more than 1,000 child victims and more than a dozen state attorneys general have opened investigations into the church. And that is just in the United States.

Bishops in countries like Italy, Chile, Australia and India are now facing accusations of cover-ups, and in some places, investigations by law enforcement authorities as well.

The great unfinished business of the long-simmering abuse scandal has been the failure of the bishops to discipline themselves. American bishops passed a "charter" of measures in 2002, after the scandal erupted in Boston, but those steps were focused on discipline for abusive priests.

The initiatives that the American bishops had planned to debate and vote on in Baltimore included creating a hotline for reporting accusations against bishops, up a lay review board to hear the allegations, and a mechanism to permanently sideline bishops who are judged to be abusers themselves. They also intended to decide on a proposed bishops' code of conduct.

The bishops knew they were under intense scrutiny and felt a need to show that they were taking action.

"I hope this doesn't look like a dodge," Bishop Christopher J. Coyne of Burlington, Vt., said of the Vatican's delay order in an interview.

Bishop Coyne said the postponement was actually helpful in some ways, because the bishops had received the text of their proposed measures only a week ago, and here were many amendments that needed to be debated and put to a vote.

"Coming into the meeting, I wasn't all that hopeful we'd be able to accomplish as much as we wanted to," said the bishop, who leads the conference's committee on communications.

Cardinal DiNardo said at the news conference that he did not know whether Pope Francis himself had requested the delay. He said that when he met with the pope in October, Francis was "very positive."

The cardinal said he learned of the delay order only on Sunday, in a letter from the Vatican office known as the Congregation for Bishops.

He suggested that the Vatican's objections could be related to "cultural heritage." While he did not elaborate on what that meant, the Americans' urgency to act has sometimes been dismissed by the church's predominantly Italian headquarters at the Vatican.

Cardinal DiNardo said that another reason for the delay could be that the measures proposed by the American bishops were seen in the Vatican as requiring changes to canon law.

He suggested that there was some wisdom in waiting until after the global bishops' conference takes up the same questions next year.

Sex abuse is a "universal" problem, he said, "and the church has to handle it universally."

Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago, who rose quickly to speak to the bishops after the surprise announcement about the delay, suggested that they go ahead and debate the measures and take a nonbinding vote in the next two days. He also proposed an extra meeting in March, after the global meeting, to make the new policies final.

A person close to the pope, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the matter, said he believed that the delay was not intended to prevent action on sexual abuse.

He said he thought the pope wanted to see a coordinated global response, and that it did not make sense for the bishops' conference of one country to move independently ahead of others. He acknowledged that the delay would raise expectations that the global meeting at the Vatican next year would produce concrete results, but he said that was the meeting's purpose in any case.

In an address to the bishops in Baltimore, Archbishop Christopher Pierre, the Vatican's ambassador to the United States, appeared to warn them not to cede too much authority to laypeople.

"Surely, collaboration with the laity is essential," he said. "However, the responsibility as bishops of this Catholic Church is ours."

The bishops in Baltimore spent most of Monday in prayer and repentance in an enclosed hotel ballroom that had been converted into a makeshift sanctuary. Most did not leave the hotel where they are staying during the three-day meeting, heeding warnings that there could be throngs of protesters outside.

As it happened, the demonstrations on Monday were fairly sparse. But the bishops were confronted inside the hotel with the anguish of two abuse survivors who had been invited to speak to them during the day of prayer.

Luis A. Torres Jr., from New York, told the bishops to have the courage to move ahead "not in three months, not in six months -- yesterday."

"Be the priests you were called to be," Mr. Torres said. "Please act now."

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read. Sometimes there is a small part of me that wonders if there is any possibility of US splinter group strong enough to form a [mostly] US based Catholic schism.

Yes I know very unlikely to happen and even if it did happen would most likely be very small and inconsequential.

Still between losing younger people to indifference to religion and the sex abuse scandals many have already fled to other denominations and/or more casual non-denominational churches.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my line of work I speak with a lot of catholics, both laity and clergy. I hear, nearly unanimously, that attendance is down, as are applicants to the priesthood. No one wants to be associated with an organization that's systematically protected these people.

Catholicism is a sinking ship in the US.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Catholicism is a sinking ship in the US.


Not in the Southwest--too many people with family ties back to Mexico and catholicism is still active and thriving there.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, I get that he wants the summit to be first, unity and the same page all that, but surely somebody pointed out what a PR nightmare it would be to order them to postpone their vote?

Seems like a needless move that is going to just damage their credibility even further.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good on US Bishops .. good to see 👍 now if only Rome countenanced an end to sexual abuses in all churches and institutions
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1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Cail wrote:
Catholicism is a sinking ship in the US.


Not in the Southwest--too many people with family ties back to Mexico and catholicism is still active and thriving there.
Yet another compelling reason to stop illegal immigration.
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