Kevin's Watch Forum Index
 HomeHome   MemberlistMemberlist   RegisterRegister   SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   FAQFAQ   StatisticsStatistics  SudokuSudoku   Phoogle MapPhoogle Map 
 AlbumAlbum StoresStores   StoresItems Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Arrest the Pope
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TheFallen
Master of Innominate Surquedry

Male
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 1576

Thanks: 23
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts

Location: Guildford, UK
17769 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ur Dead wrote:
Assumptions??
How hard is it to use wikileaks? Put in search criteria get lists of pages.
Anybody with a computer can do that.
I went for Google and Wikipedia, rather than Wikileaks.

The only article I could find that quoted anything like the stats you alleged was one published in Australia and specifically about Australia. Hence why I asked you for your sources.

Saying "google it" is not an adequate response and merely makes what you say another unsupported allegation (the exact type of thing which ironically you then go on to quite rightfully criticise in your following posts). Leaving that to one side...

Ur Dead wrote:
The pope can decree a statement about the abusive priests but the other bishops don't have to obey it.

Thats why it need to be civil action.
Yes, I completely agree on both counts.

However, just because the other bishops might not obey the Pope does NOT mean that the Pope shouldn't give clear and unequivocal guidance. The Pope needs to make both his own and the Catholic Church's official position a whole lot less ambiguous - and I can't for the life of me see why he wouldn't want to. His current lack of clarity of statement and ongoing inaction unfortunately lends extra credence to the Vigano allegations.

And yes instances or allegations or suspicions of child abuse absolutely need to be dealt with by the civil authorities, but with the full aid and assistance of and full disclosure from the Catholic Church hierarchy (save - sadly - anything falling under the Confessional Seal). Those instances or allegations or suspicions NEED REPORTING to the civil authorities first of all.

Now I of course don't place the whole burden of responsibility for the actions of all (or in fact, any) within the Catholic hierarchy on Pope Francis. He should only be held accountable for his own actions - whether ones of omission or commission. But if he is proven to have been complicit in protecting and concealing McCarrick, then yes, he would be a knowing accessory after the fact to a crime. HOWEVER that's not been proven as yet.

What the Pope can however do - and what IMV he is morally beholden to do - is to clearly enunciate Church policy. What should priests do when either witnessing, or hearing allegations of child abuse? There can be no doubt that at least Pope Francis should make the Church's policy crystal clear - inform the relevant secular agency and offer full assistance and disclosure to any subsequent investigation by secular authorities.

Sure, he can't compel those lower down the hierarchy to obey him - but he can make it very clear to other priests and adherents alike that their moral duty is to report... and NOT just internally.
_________________
Newsflash... the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron"

Some people say I'm egocentric... but hey, enough about them
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
samrw3
Bloodguard


Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 826

Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts


1294 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have stayed silent because to me this subject is sensitive and complex. I also respect Catholic's and I respect the people that post here supporting the Catholic church.

I do not wish to offend but I cannot escape which many postings have posted before me. However, I want to add my two cents and hope that may raise a thought or two.

I have read the more recent immigration thread. There are many postings about different news articles and various Catholic leaders thoughts and ideas and calls to action about the immigration issue.

Can the Catholics not see or understand the value is there were just as many articles about the sex abuse scandals - calls to action - thoughts for reformation - leaders decrying the horrible actions and inactions. Just imagine the same amount of posts from all over the world that we are seeing in the immigration thread about the sexual abuse scandal. Perhaps there are many articles and they are just not being posted here in KW - my guess is probably not.

In this case tone does matter. Messaging is important. A constant diligence and outcry and calls for action and for some thoughtfulness is needed. I have worked for many corporations and they have all had people (or at least one person) responsible for image and image control. Catholics can start tiny steps just by churning the articles out about the sexual abuse scandal and having leaders from all over the world chiming in.

Please consider it. My two cents.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38411

Thanks: 16
Thanked 115 Times in 106 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
20492 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, there are a handful of stories about the ongoing scandal(s) on many of Wos's propaganda sites. Granted, he won't post them, and granted they're not at all condemning of the church or its members, but they're there.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 11632

Thanks: 21
Thanked 109 Times in 105 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
65116 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice sentiments, but the church is probably hoping all the noise over immigration will help sweep the sex abuse stories under the rug like they are used to doing.

There aren't many of us here and there are many websites/news sources we miss. We do what we can; nothing more may be expected of us.

_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ur Dead
The Gap Into Spam

Male
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 1881

Thanks: 5
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts


3068 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Translation1 Diamondraught1 Lord's Staff


PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now it looks like civil action has convince the religious group to bend.

https://www.whio.com/news/local/apnewsbreak-2nd-ohio-diocese-release-abusive-priest-list/BpY6w9YEpEJ4PFPCLB5dbL/

[I get errors when trying to post contents of the story- like WTF]

Quote:
The U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops approved a zero-tolerance policy
called the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People in 2002 in
the midst of a national scandal over the church's failure to address and, in
some cases cover up, sexual abuse and misconduct by priests. The policy
required dioceses to alert authorities when they learned of abuse allegations,
conduct their own investigations and remove accused priests from their duties
during such reviews.


Was able to C&P this part.
Remember what I said about the Bishops? The heads of the dioceses
in the US they took action back 15 years ago. You don't need the Pope to bring the church in line. It's the bishops that will bring the Pope and Church in line.
Now the policy is only valid in the US, like governments the Church in one
country does not set policy for the church in other countries.
Those Bishops have to come to a joint agreement. Then as one voice they
force the pope to join and speak with authority.
_________________
What's this silver looking ring doing on my finger?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Rawedge Rim
My quest continues

Male
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 4902

Thanks: 32
Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts

Location: Florida
25937 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora2 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 Dalek


PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind, as I posted earlier, the absolute vast majority of the cases coming to light happened decades ago. Most of the offenders are deceased. What you are primarily seeing are old cases now coming into the public light. The screening process of priest and deacons was tightened up considerably back in 2002, and the laity has been informed, and continues to be informed that if someone in the clergy, or even the laity who works for some aspect of the Church (teachers, admin. etc), to report them to the civil authorities.
_________________
“One accurate measurement is worth a
thousand expert opinions.”
- Adm. Grace Hopper

"Whenever you dream, you're holding the key, it opens the the door to let you be free" ..RJD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Kizza
Pointer and Quaffer

Male
Joined: 11 May 2017
Posts: 541

Thanks: 8
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

Location: Australia
2257 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Diamondraught


PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the reference to the need for civil action and the point around the screening process or transition as a result of old cases coming to light must be considered.
It will always take a while for a policy to shake its way through an organisation. The bigger the organisation the longer it will take.
So that is where the how it is measured becomes important. If "it" is the betrayal of the trust of a child, then measuring "it" to draw comparisons would require continual restrospective review.
If the atrocities were measured in 2018, there may have been none committed in 2018, but 33 were just now reported as having happened in 1988, and 42 just now reported as having happened in 1992 and so on.

On the Vigano point, and should he be charged for knowing of McCarricks abuses and having done nothing about it:
Vigano definitely delegated the problem up instead of reporting it to legal authorities. Delegating up is a lazy bastards approach.
On reflection I don't think he can be charged for being complicit because he wasn't aware of the crime as it was happening, but became aware of it afterwards. The question "Did Vigano take steps to conceal the information?" would need answering. By reporting it internally or "delegating up" he should not be exonerated entirely. Surely this is still a form of withholding information or obstructing justice considering the church does not manage or maintain civil law.

Spiritual law and the interpretation of the bible versus civil law and the court of civil jurisdiction.
_________________
She's mad, but she's magic.
There's no lie in her fire.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Avatar
Immanentizing The Eschaton


Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 55861

Thanks: 72
Thanked 160 Times in 157 Posts

Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
23504 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Pantheon Veteran


PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:

However, just because the other bishops might not obey the Pope does NOT mean that the Pope shouldn't give clear and unequivocal guidance. The Pope needs to make both his own and the Catholic Church's official position a whole lot less ambiguous - and I can't for the life of me see why he wouldn't want to.


Agreed. He should be out there saying he, and by extension the church, won't stand for this. And perhaps with unequivocal guidance from the Pope, more of the lower hierarchies will feel comfortable with reporting etc.

--A
_________________
Don't believe everything you think.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Phoogle Map
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38411

Thanks: 16
Thanked 115 Times in 106 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
20492 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silence from Wosbald....
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Hashi Lebwohl
Director of Data Acquisition

Male
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 11632

Thanks: 21
Thanked 109 Times in 105 Posts

Location: UMCPHQ
65116 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caesure1 Insequent1 UMCPHQ


PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he holds to his typical posting pattern he will wait until some pro-catholic op-ed gets published then link the article rather than typing out opinions or insights of his own.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

Don Exnihilote wrote:
Hashi, if you thought you were wrong at times, evidently you were mistaken.


Mensa and Intertel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38411

Thanks: 16
Thanked 115 Times in 106 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
20492 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More silence from Wos....DC diocese releases names of 31 kid-diddling priests.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Rawedge Rim
My quest continues

Male
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 4902

Thanks: 32
Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts

Location: Florida
25937 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Caamora2 Lord Mhoram's Victory1 Dalek


PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
More silence from Wos....DC diocese releases names of 31 kid-diddling priests.

No the archdiocese released the names of 31 men, half of whom are dead, where there is credible evidence (pretty much the same language as in a Grand Jury indictment) that they abused children between the years of 1948 and 1996. Several were arrested and so can try to defend themselves in a court of law if enough evidence comes forth for a conviction.


And while I certainly hope that anyone who sexually abused a child is convicted; after decades, it's gonna be find witness's to reliably verify or invalidate the accusations.

on a side note, I'm assuming that you still believe in the presumption of innocence under the law, even if you personally think they are lying scumbags......
_________________
“One accurate measurement is worth a
thousand expert opinions.”
- Adm. Grace Hopper

"Whenever you dream, you're holding the key, it opens the the door to let you be free" ..RJD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Cail
Grin Reaper

MaleRanyhyn
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 38411

Thanks: 16
Thanked 115 Times in 106 Posts

Location: Hell of the Upside Down Sinners
20492 White Gold Dollars
Tokens
HP

User Items:
1 Member of THOOLAH1 Haruchai1 2010 Watchies


PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course I do. I'm not a court of law though.

And if other catholics were willing to at least address the issue as you have, I might have a bit more respect for both them and their religion.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Phoogle Map
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kevin's Watch Forum Index -> Hile Troy's Think-Tank All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Page 9 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by Earthpower © Kevin's Watch