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Insanity of the Left
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cities have banned plastic straws because of one teenager's "scientific" study which he conducted by phone, interviewing a whopping 5 or 10 plastic straw distributors and then extrapolating the results globally. Many cities also have "safe zone" or "free speech" ordinances dictating where you may--or may not--speak your mind.

The Bill of Rights does not apply to cities, which is how the Left--the Progressive Left, really--is trying to attain its victory. A city of 100,000 people may have 65,000 registered voters (I am picking that number out of thin air--no factual basis) but in most city elections only about 10% to 15% of people go to the polls. If that city has a 5-person city council that means it takes only 1,300 to 1,900 people (65000/5 then find 10% and 15%) to put someone on the council.

Given that today's politics is driven by people trying to out-Democrat or out-Republican each other, playing to the extreme rather than the middle, then a flashy news story (which may or may not be true) is sufficient to win (or lose) an election, especially at the city level.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
No, it'll probably pass as a state or local law somewhere like California. And then they'll use that to sue the federal government. Similar to what a handful of cities did in the '80s with nuclear-free zones.


I find that hard to believe.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urg, the whole plastic straws thing really annoys me. Compared to other issues it's really a pretty minimal effect.

According to phys.org, all the straws form 0.02% of the total plastic waste by weight) polluting the ocean. (4% by number of pieces.)

But it's a nice hot-button topic that can make you look all green if you stop providing them in your restaurant.

(I don't mind the metal replacements, but I hate the waxed cardboard versions.)

--A
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah true .. I hate disposable plastic bottles that have water in them. Unless your only access to water is disgusting shit, why buy water in 600ml bottles. To me its a stupid millinial marketable item.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those were merely examples. The *point* is that The Left is trying to criminalize The Right, beginning at the city level and bubbling up as far as they can.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Traditional masculinity' deemed harmful,

Quote:
"The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity - marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression - is, on the whole, harmful."

- The American Psychological Association


So a dude who thinks he's a woman is not a psychological disorder, but a dude who thinks he's a dude is??

Unbelievable. I'm stunned.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would this stun you? Everything that's occurred culturally over the course of the last 2-1/2 decades or so has been leading up to this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, boo-hoo--go cry me a river. Angela Davis is "stunned" after the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute revoked an award she was slated to receive. Their decision was made based on her vocal pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel views.

I suspect that if some group were giving her an award for those very same views, or if some left-leaning group had revoked an award from someone else because of a pro-Israel point of view, Ms. Davis would be in favor of those decisions.

*************

Also, despite the fact that Bezos is left-leaning, himself, a couple of city council members from Seattle are in New York City to talk about how bad the new HQ2 will be for NYC. Workers at the Staten Island Amazon facility are also threatening to unionize.

Hey, Jeff--you should have opened HQ2 in Dallas like you were planning to. You wouldn't have workers threatening to unionize against you and there wouldn't be city leaders complaining about jobs coming to the region.

*************

I saw the "masculinity is harmful" story but didn't mention it. Past a certain point, yes, it is mentally unhealthy to bottle up and/or ignore one's emotions--anything taken to an extreme is unhealthy--but certain traits which are defined as "traditional masculinity" are biologically hard-wired--we are supposed to act like that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can tell y'all that not a lot of people here in the DC Metro Area are thrilled about HQ2. It's going to make the worst traffic in the company worse, and drive up property values and taxes to the point that no one will be able to afford to live here. They should have gone to Detroit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

I saw the "masculinity is harmful" story but didn't mention it. Past a certain point, yes, it is mentally unhealthy to bottle up and/or ignore one's emotions--anything taken to an extreme is unhealthy--but certain traits which are defined as "traditional masculinity" are biologically hard-wired--we are supposed to act like that.


Yes, bottling up emotions is probably bad for anyone, but the fact that boys are less emotional than girls isn't automatically harmful. As you say, anything taken to an extreme can be bad.

Quote:

The "masculinity ideology" is defined by the APA as "a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence."


Achievement is bad? Adventure is bad? Risk is bad? This is such bullshit. Political correctness is starting to infect the sciences.

I understand that violence is not usually the best option, but sometimes you need violence! Context matters. These traits made great mammoth hunters. Perhaps they don't make great accountants. But that doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity is *harmful* to the men themselves. They just need ways to express this masculinity outside of work. You know, hobbies. Sports. Camping trips. Video games. There are plenty of contexts where these traits can be safely exhibited.

Are men supposed to suppress their own masculinity? The authors of this study seem to think that masculinity is something that is taught. Boys are different from girls. Humans are not blank slates.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. The whole thing is a crock. In the last 20 to 25 years we as a society are making a society where men are being taught that all the things that make us men are wrong. This is being taught to the younger generation and they are being 'shamed' into curbing their base emotions and masculinity. It's no wonder that mental health issues are in the rise when we see society trying to reverse or curb these normal biological behaviors. I see this on both sides because there is also a push for women to be more masculine as society pushes for men to be less masculine.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Achievement is bad? Adventure is bad? Risk is bad? This is such bullshit. Political correctness is starting to infect the sciences.


If we believe that achievement and risk are bad things--all children get a trophy for participation--then we won't strive for anything greater than that which the Nanny States dictates to us.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The "masculinity ideology" is defined by the APA as "a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence."

So seems to me that this comment is simply identifying that a male that is anti femininity, anti the appearance of weakness and pro violence isnt ideal or socially well balanced.

I dont know why being pro adventure would not be a positive for any human .. unless one were reckless in that pursuit.

Also the American Psychology quote identifying the following allegedly male traits ...

Quote:
Stoicism, competitiveness, aggression is harmful .. blah blah


are perhaps an identification of attitudes that may be less healthy traits. I mean aggressiveness isnt particularly valuable in contemporary times where humans no longer need to fight for survival. I know and have talked with a lot of male friends who have expressed that there exists huge social pressure to be stoic, not express how they feel, be the strong one ALL the time. That the pressure alone can drive one to distraction.

Furthermore, it is interesting is it not that such traits are not identified as female characteristics or pursuits. Women possess aggressive traits, competitive traits including stoicism.

Is there really a gender divide here? I know men who are gentle, awesome nurturers .. and a few of my male friends would have loved to be stay at home dads. One of my friends was a stay at home dad when his kids were wee tots and hes a great nurturer.

I think such research is more about identifying toxic expectations and the potential social pressure they apply to men in society.

I think what is identified as toxic masculinity is what prevents male victims of abuse from escaping and reporting such abuses, rape, emotional and physical domestic abuse of female spouses, assaults etc.

From this most dire perspective narratives like this, I think intend to alleviate unrealistic social expectations.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Quote:
The "masculinity ideology" is defined by the APA as "a particular constellation of standards that have held sway over large segments of the population, including: anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence."

So seems to me that this comment is simply identifying that a male that is anti femininity, anti the appearance of weakness and pro violence isnt ideal or socially well balanced.
The balance comes from having both men and women in society together. Note that they didn't say, "anti-feminism." We're not talking about an ideology. It's basically the same thing as boys telling each other, "don't be a sissy." I don't see how this is harmful. Boys feel peer pressure to become men. That's called growing up. It's not that they are made to hate women. They are taught to be tough.

For women, there is not as much pressure to be tough. It's okay for them to be "soft." Not weak, but nurturing. There is a place for both of these extremes, toughness and softness. And while there is nothing wrong with a balance being achieved in each of us personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with couples achieving this balance between them, each stressing one end of this spectrum.

What's harmful is telling men that it's wrong to be themselves.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with that .. I think its unhealthy to tell boys they shouldnt cry, or shouldnt express their feelings, or shouldnt attend ballet classes, or vacuum, or cook or anything that they want to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
I agree with that .. I think its unhealthy to tell boys they shouldnt cry, or shouldnt express their feelings, or shouldnt attend ballet classes, or vacuum, or cook or anything that they want to do.
I don't think it harms a boy's health in the slightest to tell him not to cook or vacuum, nor have I seen many boys who have a burning desire to do housework.

However, we're getting off track. The article made no mention of cooking or ballet. If men want to do these things, fine. When I say that it's harmful to make men feel like there is something wrong with being themselves, I mean being aggressive, risk-taking, competitive, adventure seeking, anti-sissy, anti-weakness. Most men LIKE being these things. It's part of our identity as men. Trying to take masculinity out of men is what is unhealthy. Trying to turn them into women is unhealthy. Making them feel like something is wrong with them is unhealthy.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:


When I say that it's harmful to make men feel like there is something wrong with being themselves, I mean being aggressive, risk-taking, competitive, adventure seeking, anti-sissy, anti-weakness. Most men LIKE being these things. It's part of our identity as men. Trying to take masculinity out of men is what is unhealthy. Trying to turn them into women is unhealthy. Making them feel like something is wrong with them is unhealthy.


That is spot on Z. There seems to be an crazy idea that being a man in the traditional sense is wrong and harmful to them, to others, and to society. What is more true is that forcing men to be something else, is wrong and will cause more mental health issues in society.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:


When I say that it's harmful to make men feel like there is something wrong with being themselves, I mean being aggressive, risk-taking, competitive, adventure seeking, anti-sissy, anti-weakness. Most men LIKE being these things. It's part of our identity as men. Trying to take masculinity out of men is what is unhealthy. Trying to turn them into women is unhealthy. Making them feel like something is wrong with them is unhealthy.


That is spot on Z. There seems to be an crazy idea that being a man in the traditional sense is wrong and harmful to them, to others, and to society. What is more true is that forcing men to be something else, is wrong and will cause more mental health issues in society.


That maybe true.

However, aggressiveness isnt a useful social trait today. In fact aggressiveness is downright unhealthy. In Australia we still have issues with domestic violence and one woman each week is killed by their life partner. I find that an untenable scenario and indicative of a need to change how we treat one another.

You say there is nothing wrong with being anti sissy .. but how is that translated into social behaviour? Does it manifest into bullying, bastardising, hate narrative and crimes? Does being aggressive lead to being abusive?

I think the point is having men and women think about their behaviour.

You mentioned anti weakness .. and I think of my life partner, who feels he HAS to push on when doing so is absolutely detrimental to his health and wellbeing. I think many of these attitudes are challenged to give men a break. Sure be adventurous.. do shit .. why not?

But men dont have a monopoly on being adventurous or risk taking or competitive... do they? Im no man .. but I am absolutely competitive, adventurous and willing to give almost anything a crack... and always up for a challenge.

My point here is that there are irrefutably unhealthy and arguably toxic behaviours .. and in society men particularly have a great many unhealthy expectations placed upon them. That men should be always strong and yet always be gentle .. men should be the major bread winner, should provide for their families, should know how to fix cars, be handymen, men should always be stoic.. but at the end of the day ..

That men are always responsible even when intoxicated .. harking back to that quasi ruling re question of sexual consent. But at the end of the day youre only human.

I disagree that the article is talking about toxic masculinity and the above oft cited behaviourisms as an anti male stance. I think toxic masculinity is about dispelling the myths and unreasonable expectations society places on men .. as well as identifying some expected behaviours as unhealthy and socially detrimental.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:


When I say that it's harmful to make men feel like there is something wrong with being themselves, I mean being aggressive, risk-taking, competitive, adventure seeking, anti-sissy, anti-weakness. Most men LIKE being these things. It's part of our identity as men. Trying to take masculinity out of men is what is unhealthy. Trying to turn them into women is unhealthy. Making them feel like something is wrong with them is unhealthy.


That is spot on Z. There seems to be an crazy idea that being a man in the traditional sense is wrong and harmful to them, to others, and to society. What is more true is that forcing men to be something else, is wrong and will cause more mental health issues in society.


That maybe true.

However, aggressiveness isnt a useful social trait today. In fact aggressiveness is downright unhealthy. In Australia we still have issues with domestic violence and one woman each week is killed by their life partner. I find that an untenable scenario and indicative of a need to change how we treat one another.

You say there is nothing wrong with being anti sissy .. but how is that translated into social behaviour? Does it manifest into bullying, bastardising, hate narrative and crimes? Does being aggressive lead to being abusive?

I think the point is having men and women think about their behaviour.

You mentioned anti weakness .. and I think of my life partner, who feels he HAS to push on when doing so is absolutely detrimental to his health and wellbeing. I think many of these attitudes are challenged to give men a break. Sure be adventurous.. do shit .. why not?

But men dont have a monopoly on being adventurous or risk taking or competitive... do they? Im no man .. but I am absolutely competitive, adventurous and willing to give almost anything a crack... and always up for a challenge.

My point here is that there are irrefutably unhealthy and arguably toxic behaviours .. and in society men particularly have a great many unhealthy expectations placed upon them. That men should be always strong and yet always be gentle .. men should be the major bread winner, should provide for their families, should know how to fix cars, be handymen, men should always be stoic.. but at the end of the day ..

That men are always responsible even when intoxicated .. harking back to that quasi ruling re question of sexual consent. But at the end of the day youre only human.

I disagree that the article is talking about toxic masculinity and the above oft cited behaviourisms as an anti male stance. I think toxic masculinity is about dispelling the myths and unreasonable expectations society places on men .. as well as identifying some expected behaviours as unhealthy and socially detrimental.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:


However, aggressiveness isnt a useful social trait today. In fact aggressiveness is downright unhealthy. In Australia we still have issues with domestic violence and one woman each week is killed by their life partner. I find that an untenable scenario and indicative of a need to change how we treat one another.
What is a "social trait?" We're talking about individual traits. For an individual, aggressiveness can be an extremely helpful trait. Think about athletes, sport stars, salesmen, CEOs, etc. where being timid will put you at a disadvantage.

Anything can be taken to an extreme. No one is saying that domestic violence is good. (Plenty of women commit domestic violence, too, and our society tends to overlook it because guys are supposed to be tough--that's one unhealthy consequence of this type of thinking!!) However, there is nothing inherently wrong or unhealthy about aggression. It's all about context.

Quote:
You say there is nothing wrong with being anti sissy .. but how is that translated into social behaviour?


It's translated many ways. It's about being brave, whether that is asking for a promotion, asking a girl out on a date, taking a risk so you can reap a reward. Hate crimes, abuse, and bullying have nothing to do with masculinity. I think even trying to make this argument is hateful. It is certainly sexist. Blacks commit more crimes than whites. Imagine if this statistical truth were used to say that "traditional blackness" is psychologically harmful! Do you think a scientific organization could get away with that?

Quote:
But men dont have a monopoly on being adventurous or risk taking or competitive... do they? Im no man .. but I am absolutely competitive, adventurous and willing to give almost anything a crack... and always up for a challenge.
Not a monopoly, no. But guys are better at asking for raises and promotions. They also choose careers that are more dangerous. For these reasons, men tend to make more money than women. So instead of stripping these traits out of society, perhaps women could learn from their counterparts!

Quote:
I disagree that the article is talking about toxic masculinity and the above oft cited behaviourisms as an anti male stance. I think toxic masculinity is about dispelling the myths and unreasonable expectations society places on men .. as well as identifying some expected behaviours as unhealthy and socially detrimental.
Yes, the article isn't talking about "toxic" masculinity. It's talking about traditional masculinity, and then defining this as unhealthy.
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