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Vraith
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Vraith, in his quotes of my posts, has manipulated my username with the intent of being insulting.


Whether or not people want to admit it, there's an obvious double standard.


I swear a lot. No rule against it, as far as I know. It has purpose.
I insist I'm correct more or less just as much as anyone else.
I don't play y'alls link game because, among other things, it's mostly useless...most of the crap isn't "support" or "evidence," it's junk or just someone ELSE's opinion---and half the time the source isn't as smart as the person writing the post!.
I sometimes call people names that do/have called me names. I've started a collection of them. Not sure how long before I get bored with it. Maybe I should go back to your previous time here and find the ones you used. [[nah, that would be tedious]].

But, how DOES one phrase/claim this if one is a dodge master????
I believe the phrasing is "I wasn't insulting YOU by altering the name. I was making a point about ongoing arguments and the name itself." Which, BTW, is really so in that particular case.
Sometimes people miss points/purposes. Sometimes things happen for a reason, but not the reason one thinks.

Double standard? Really? There are/have been some pretty outrageous things from all sides, and no side at all...hardly ever a problem/consequences for anyone of ANY side.

Cail saw it coming, not cuz he did anything, but just cuz he was despised among men and martyred himself??????????????
Jesus Fucking Christ, THAT's....well...that's just special

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Has Luci been banned?


like...for what? what would I be banned for? Laughing what'd I do?
why you wanna ban me? hell fire and bloody damnation!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vraith wrote:
Cail saw it coming, not cuz he did anything, but just cuz he was despised among men and martyred himself??????????????
Jesus Fucking Christ, THAT's....well...that's just special[/color]

What we have here is an ouroborous. Cail is gaslighting himself.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:

From beyond the ban, Cail wrote:
You know there's no way they'd do that. They simply lack the self-reflection. My style is my style, and it's not going to change. I absolutely regret a few of my barbs, particularly the "go fuck a sheep" thing. That was just dumb, and it never should have been posted. I miss the conversations, and it kills me that I missed the shitshow in Virginia, but the powers that be are so convinced they're right that having an apostate like me there is intolerable. I'd come back if asked, but I know damn well that won't happen. And I'm cool with that.



What shitshow in Virginia? Some drama at an Elohimfest?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:

From beyond the ban, Cail wrote:
You know there's no way they'd do that. They simply lack the self-reflection. My style is my style, and it's not going to change. I absolutely regret a few of my barbs, particularly the "go fuck a sheep" thing. That was just dumb, and it never should have been posted. I miss the conversations, and it kills me that I missed the shitshow in Virginia, but the powers that be are so convinced they're right that having an apostate like me there is intolerable. I'd come back if asked, but I know damn well that won't happen. And I'm cool with that.



What shitshow in Virginia? Some drama at an Elohimfest?


dunno what he's referring to. there hasn't been an efest in VA since the one he was at. <shrug>
I live in Colorado now.
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i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:

From beyond the ban, Cail wrote:
You know there's no way they'd do that. They simply lack the self-reflection. My style is my style, and it's not going to change. I absolutely regret a few of my barbs, particularly the "go fuck a sheep" thing. That was just dumb, and it never should have been posted. I miss the conversations, and it kills me that I missed the shitshow in Virginia, but the powers that be are so convinced they're right that having an apostate like me there is intolerable. I'd come back if asked, but I know damn well that won't happen. And I'm cool with that.



What shitshow in Virginia? Some drama at an Elohimfest?


Virginia governor in blackface. Lt governor rape charges. 3rd in line blackface.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
Ugh Fallen .. I see it is absolutely pointless discussing anything with you. Your mind is set. Fine.

Sky, it is disappointing to see you duck the perfectly justified question posed to you on the basis of your own words. Let me ask it again.

As both I and Ex picked up on - unsurprisingly, because it was so breathtakingly unselfaware - why is it okay for you given your own already very clearly expressed standards to publicly call someone "an asshole", "a dick" or a "douche bag"?

I'm presuming that such terminology suddenly doesn't become justified to your mind just because your target is enforcedly absent? Or perhaps it does? Do let me know.

The above touches on my next point. Yes, you won't change my mind on how vanishingly unimportant style or tone is in a text-based political forum bulletin board. As I have said, to me and to my personal standards, it's all about the content, not what it's dressed in. Is the content well argued? Is it cogent and relevant? Is it thus thought-provoking? To me, that's all that matters.

However, I'm not fascist enough to demand that everyone adopts my own standards of what's acceptable. Sure, I'll argue for my standards and explain why I think they're appropriate - but I am also happy for others to hold different views and as a result I am more than prepared to agree to differ on this.

Case in point - you have a different set of standards. You have repeatedly said you're all in favour of studious courtesy, respect and decorum. And it's of course fine for you to hold that particular set of value judgements...

...BUT then I'd suggest that for you to promptly go calling someone who's recently been permanently censored for apparently and consistently adopting too confrontational a tone and too robust language an "asshole", a "dick" and a "douche bag" risks coming across as the most jawdropping example of hypocrisy.

You've stated and argued for your standards - perhaps if you want to be taken seriously and considered as genuine in this, you should first and foremost hold yourself to them?

And holding such apparently obvious double standards is sadly not rare.

Aliantha elsewhere wrote:
Cail's cheap shots at Sky gave us hope that something might finally be done -- that we might be able, at last, to reinstate civility here in the Tank.

If Watchers getting together to ask the admins for civility and respect constitutes a conspiracy, then I guess I'm guilty. But treating people with respect strikes me as a hill worth dying on.
Fine... now square that lofty and laudable mission statement away with "asshole", "dick" and "douche bag" as per above. I'm not seeing a whole heap of much-valued "respect" in their usage.

And forget that particular piece of arrant hypocrisy for a moment - you rail against "cheap shots". Well, don't those oh so obvious cheap shots become even more staggeringly cheap because they're made about someone who isn't even around?

Aliantha wrote:
Why don't one of you guys make a separate thread where you can all go and complain amongst yourselves about Cail's banning and how nice it was when you had the place all to yourselves?
Well it was certainly less hypocritical... but hey, here's an idea... why don't you stop trying to control the narrative and let people talk about what they think is important, when they think it's important and where they choose to?

Leaving aside the trite mockery in the quote above, I'm also mildly interested in your usage of "you guys" as per my emphasis above... is that intended as a typically divisive catch-all term meaning "anyone daring to hold a counteropinion to yourself? Or is it "guys" in the sense of "males" and you're again pulling out an utterly farcical sexism card to try to frame the issue as "brave women rising up to overthrow a domineering male patriarchy" (NB my quotes) in an attempt to justify the approach? You've certainly got form on this...
Aliantha elsewhere wrote:
And isn't it interesting that y'all are howling because three *women* stood up to a bunch of *men*? Huh. I wonder what *that's* all about...

Rolling Eyes Again how typical. When attempting to claim the moral high ground, unroll an utterly inappropriate discrimination banner to try to hide one's intent behind...

Regardless, let me say it again slowly and clearly... to me this is not about Cail and his banning, for all that his being permanently censored was and is an excellent exemplar of the general point in question.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, where to begin... Very Happy

First off, as I've said before, I'm fine with people discussing the issue (this is after all a discussion board), however in deference to Hashi's desire not to turn the 'Tank into a free-for-all on this topic, I'm equally happy to split out all these posts into their own thread, and if necessary, move that thread elsewhere, if a discrete thread is insufficient.

(I will leave the choice up to Hashi in order to minimise my own interference as much as possible. Unfortunately having modded the 'Tank for around 10 years myself, I still feel quite attached to it and thus have to combat my urge to do so insofar as possible.)

Next, I have to agree that it is in bad taste at best for posters to call people names when they are no longer present to dispute or defend themselves. I understand why, particularly when the topic concerns people's justifications etc. But I'm not a fan of it.

In the same same vein, I don't feel it necessary or appropriate to debate or attempt to refute Cail's comments 3rd-hand, nor to speculate on his motivations, either claimed or assumed. Like everybody else, he will have his own opinions on what transpired which will suit his world-view and his view of the rest of us, and they are unlikely to be changed regardless of what is said by whom. (Indeed, what is said by whom will no doubt only serve to reinforce them, because that's how it goes.)

Finally, on the subject of name-calling and the rules...

As everybody should be aware, name-calling is a violation of the guidelines, and may result in a warning, or a temporary ban, or a permanent ban.


The Rules and Guidelines post in Announcements is pretty clear:

Vain wrote:

More serious guidelines - May result in a warning from a moderator and a temporary suspension/permanent ban

    Don't get personal; a good general rule: "criticize ideas, not people".
    Don't post personal/racial/ethnic/gender-based insults, slurs or offensive comments.
    Don't make posts that are inflammatory just to wind people up.
    Don't post contact details e.g. phone numbers and physical address details, or post other peoples e-mail addresses unless you have their permission to do so.
    Don't make slanderous statements, or anything else that might violate someone's privacy.
    Don't threaten other users. Threats will not be tolerated
    If you have an issue with someone, take it up in private with that person. KW isn't here for you to air your personal grievances with any member of KW - if you insist on doing this then your post will get zapped and the offending account disabled.


Now what should also be fairly clear to everybody who has more than a passing acquaintance with the Watch, is that we're also pretty damned lenient when it comes to the guidelines. It takes consistent and egregious violations of the guidelines over an extended period of time to reach the point where a ban is actually effected. And before that happens, there are mod / admin requests, warnings, etc. (And I don't think that blue one has ever been enforced to my knowledge.)

It takes a lot to get us to the point of wanting to ban somebody. I think that during my own tenure at the Watch, there have been fewer than 10 permanent and irrevocable bans, excluding blatant spam accounts. (And we even leave some of those sometimes. Very Happy )

If we banned everybody who called somebody a name at some time or other the instant they did so, there would probably be precious few people here. However, keep violating the guidelines regularly and deliberately, keep ignoring (or disputing) the requests or decisions of mods / admins, and you will reach the point where we just don't want to give you any more chances. At that point, a straw can break the camel's back.

I believe we have always gone out of our way to avoid banning people. And if at all possible, that isn't going to change. But sometimes a time comes where we can see no other solution.

With all the above in mind therefore, I would like to request that everybody stop calling each other names. Whether you're retaliating for having being called names yourself, or you're trying to make a point about the calling of names, or you think you're revealing the hypocrisy of the other side or the administration, or whatever reasonable (to you) reason you're using to justify or be incensed by it.

At the end of the day, the only way anybody on this forum gets banned is if Jay and / or I decide it. (Spot the may in the guidelines.) And it takes more than a few angry name-callings during a discussion in which emotions are clearly running high on all sides.

So, please stop it. And anybody who wishes to discuss the issue reasonably is free to do so, either in the new thread or whatever (and wherever) this ends up, or, as I have said before, privately with me.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This does deserve a thread split
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aliantha wrote:
If you'd been here when Syl was the mod, DonEx, you'd see how wrong you were. We had strict debate rules and he absolutely forbade ad hominem attacks -- from anybody. The Tank was still pretty wild, but nothing like it has been lately.
I've been here on and off since 2005. You are misremembering.

Aliantha elsewhere wrote:
And isn't it interesting that y'all are howling because three *women* stood up to a bunch of *men*? Huh. I wonder what *that's* all about...
I've never seen someone so well refuted so often continue to act so patronizing before. What happened to the Aliantha of yore that was capable of occasional self reflection?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that that the longer one nurses a grudge - whether originally justified or not - the more one's ability for self-awareness is diminished. The self-corrosiveness of long-stored bile, the ever more blurring effect of long-present red mists and all that.

I've no idea if this applies or not to the current state of things or anyone in particular but thought I'd throw it out there.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How fortunate we are to have your magnanimous insights TF.

So please with respect to your pressing question, provide evidence of my name calling .. and its context, when I said it etc.

... but you can absolutely be sure, if you be a dick it is highly likely I will absolutely call you out on it .. and if you piss me off, and call me names like a ... sheep fucker ... I will respond IN KIND. If you cant take it then dont dish it ... is my view.

As far as Cail goes we sorted out our shit ... as far as was possible given the short time we had to do that by pm. Calling me a tosser did not cut me to the quick .. Im not THAT precious. I got the impression that Cail isnt that precious either.

If you consider me and my posts a toxic influence in the Watch, Tank whatever .. make your case. And if its my bad I will own it.

I actually ... when Im not being attacked 😉 make a genuine effort to be congenial ... I dont get my jollies off on being unpleasant, cruel or obtuse. THAT doesnt do it for me .. but we are all different, right? Rolling Eyes

But do your worst TF, Nihilo and Nano .. I honestly am past giving a shit.

I absolutely prefer congeniality but clearly its not what you are interested in. Each to their own.

And tbh its become incredibly boring .. and same old same old ... and to my mind utterly pointless.

I wont pretend Cail wasnt a dick to appease any of you or Av. Even Cail, if hes honest, I doubt would deny that he was a dick to me.

And as Ive said AND as Cail said ... we sorted out our shit. I think he is man enough to own .. his bad. As I own mine.

Im kinda over all the shit slinging ... . and the irony is not lost on me given I didnt ban the geeser. But sure, take your whiny shit out on me.

And if banning me fixes your little red wagons .... PUHLEEAAASSEE ban my ass. Im over it all anyway 🤷‍♀️ theres no joy in any of this for me,
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

,,,and yet again you misunderstand, Sky and go off with a snap response. I do wish you'd read through threads instead of kneejerking... it'd save so much time.

Both Ex and I specifically quoted the instances to you a few posts back. Here's Ex on this to save you the bother of reading back:-
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote:
Skyweir wrote:
He got away with being a dick for years .


Skyweir wrote:
Oh and getting personal does not a great contribution make .. its not a value add. The Watch is not made better by ad hominem attacks .. they dontefly in debates . Its lLAZY and INARTICULATE


Skyweir wrote:
And hypothetically lets say Cail does return . he will be required to refrain from ad hominem attacks and being a douche bag right?


The lack of self-awareness displayed here is simply staggering. Sky, do you not realize how often you say things like the quotes above?
This - surely very understandably - gave rise to my genuinely asked question as to how someone campaigning for decorum, civility and respect could promptly not show such.

You've now clarified your position by adding that you're fine to go for cheap shots if someone else started it. That's all good by me and okay, I am now better informed as to your own held standards - thanks for clearing that up.

(I still think it was really shitty to take cheap shot pops at someone in his enforced absence, but as you say, each to his/her own).

I've not once disputed whether Cail or anyone else has been "a dick" to anyone's standards. I have instead simply stated that - to me and to me alone (who else can I possibly speak for?) - tone and language don't matter. I'm not asking or expecting anyone else to agree with this - but damn, it'd be good if they did.

I'm certainly not asking you to change your opinion on Cail either. I certainly saw him post more than once in your direction in what could be easily argued was a "dickish" manner. I do suspect though that a good deal of that "dickishness" was caused by impatience and might have been alleviated if you didn't get hold of the wrong end of the stick so frequently. Of course, nobody expects anyone on a forum like this to agree with everything they say - but it would be nice if people responded, having taken some note of what was actually previously posted.

I'm also fine with you or anyone else calling me "a dick" if wished - okay I'd find it more useful when I am actually being a dick, but any time is all good.

I'm actually delighted at the news that you and Cail "sorted out your shit" - I'll take you at your word and on that basis, hats off to you both.

I'm absolutely not interested in seeing anyone banned on the basis of tone or language used in posts as per above and have literally no clue where you got that idea from. I also don't believe it's even possible for anyone who takes the time to genuinely get involved in a debate and post their opinions to be a "toxic influence".

In fact, if a possible banning of you were ever being mooted and I were asked - staggeringly unlikely - I'd fight tooth and nail against it. Just as I would have done, had I been asked about Cail. To me (for the very little that's worth) the Tank would definitely be less of a place without you in it (for all that your too quick reactions to posts drives me nuts - I effing hate having to do the "my previous post deconstruction" thing). And for the exact same reasons, to me it's less of a place without Cail.

What I absolutely will kick off about is apparent double standards. Sure, everyone holds different standards - but surely the very least we can all do - myself obviously included - is ourselves to abide by the ones that we ourselves hold? And PLEASE NOTE, since your clarification re responding in kind, that comment is NOT aimed at you.

And if you choose to see this post as "whiny shit" or me "doing my worst" or "needing to fix my little red wagons", of course feel free - but you'd again entirely be missing the point I - and one or two others apparently - have been trying to make.

Capisce? I really truly hope so...

...so stop being a dick, okay?







Sorry! Sorry! I simply COULD NOT STOP myself from adding that last line via edit. For all that one shouldn't laugh at one's own gags, it made me laugh anyways...
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I literally LOLed, too. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:

Aliantha elsewhere wrote:
And isn't it interesting that y'all are howling because three *women* stood up to a bunch of *men*? Huh. I wonder what *that's* all about...

Rolling Eyes Again how typical. When attempting to claim the moral high ground, unroll an utterly inappropriate discrimination banner to try to hide one's intent behind...
Weird. I thought three women stood up to one man. Is this stand against Cail larger than it appeared to be on the surface? Is there another agenda? I thought the issue was his behavior, not "a bunch of men." Why was it necessary to stand up to us? When did that stand happen? I didn't even notice it. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

I absolutely prefer congeniality TF .. but Im not going to pretend Im something Im not. Im no saint, Im not perfect, I have a short fuse and youd be hard pressed to find me infallible, as well, right?

I dont go out of my way TO BE a dick .. but that doesnt mean I cant BE a dick on occasions.

But it bares noting, that I dont come out swinging TF. Yet I will absolutely defend myself AND others, if I feel so inclined.

Take my comments as you will .. I got no more Fs to give 🤷‍♀️ .. on that front.

But yes I absolutely called it as I saw it when I describing Cail as a dick or whatever else upthread I said. Yup thats on me, I own it and I will NEVER EVER retract it. Why? Because that was my first hand experience.

Nevertheless.. I dont HATE Cail, he definitely pushed me off on occasion, but I didnt and still dont hate him ...

I cant say I was that invested to hate him. After pming him, however, on at least one level .. I actually developed a respect for him.

Of course, to Cail, he did not have a problem, EVERYONE else did. But I believe Cail knows whats what and whats not when it comes to his chosen posting style.

Ive said the very same to Cail .. and from MY perspective I was honest, direct and did not pull punches. He was the same in response. And that I respect.

AND you dont NEED to take my word for any of it .. Nihilo copy and pasted Cails allegedly post banning comments .. besides suggesting Im not the sharpest tool in the shed 😉 .. he actually noted the pms we exchanged. But it wasnt over a few days .. as it was only 2 pms each that we exchanged prior to his banning. Or alternatively just ask him.

And tbh Id far rather talk to him now, than to all of you about him. But Im not going to pretend he was all sunshine and rainbows, as thatd be utter disingenuous and absolute BS.

And to again clarify FYI, Nihilo, I believe it was, asked why I wasnt banned .. for my crimes 😉 ... hence my position and response re banning.

And in conclusion, TF you need to realise that its not ALL about your posts mate .... Im not ONLY replying to you ... as Im trying to take a broad enough response to. cover off on the growing list of complaints detailed above 😉

And NO .. Im not into slinging around cheap shots .. the only cheap shots I like are the ones down the pub. 🥃
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Z again with the conspiracy theory .. if you read upthread and over the page we three were cited.

What power do you IMAGINE we have? Did we cast a spell on Av .. and make him our automaton to do our bidding?

Jebus Sliced .. a power like that is awesomeness.. do you imagine if we had such powers that we would tolerate all this shit?

Baby Id definitely be clearing house, or maybe Id get my dragons to scorch this earth and then salt it in purification 😎

mmm.. a truly marvellous power indeed 😎
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
:And in conclusion, TF you need to realise that its not ALL about your posts mate ....
Yeah, but mine are the smartest, cleverest and all round bestest.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
Weird. I thought three women stood up to one man.


well...let's set the record straight. it wasn't 3 women. it was 2 women. Ali and Sky. i left the watch as you may have noticed for several years.
i did LURK quite frequently, in other words, i read posts without signing on, or every now and then, signed on and said hey to Av and others.
but i didn't "stand up to" anybody. oh maybe years ago i attempted to.
when cail and i had our initial "falling out" i probably tried to. i also remember pm'ing him to attempt to patch it up with him because i didn't understand why or how i had offended him so much. (well, i frequently sided with the Esmer, which didn't sit well with a lot of people, but i don't think that was the whole of it.) but nothing i said or did worked to patch things up and eventually i stopped trying. <shrug> and i stopped coming around and cail was not the ONLY reason that I stopped coming around either.
that's probably a simplistic description of what happened but that's really all i can remember.
what i am guilty of is getting together with Ali and Sky (and several other male members so it wasn't just the "hen party" it's been painted as) and airing my feelings with my friends. guilty. guilty as charged.

so the statement "3 women stood up to a bunch of men" is not really correct, no matter who says it (sorry Ali.) i didn't stand up to anybody, i disappeared as you all well know.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gosh darn it .. shes outed us ... and shes absolutely bang on right .... its always been us, Ali and me that is mmm 🤔 ... or should I say Ali and I.

We are the ONLY guilty ones .. I gotta say if it wasnt for this broomstick 🧹 we would get NOTHING done 🤷‍♀️

First the Tank, then the Watch .. then the world 🌎 ..... we ..... well I cant truly speak for Ali .. cos her agenda might be slightly different .. but mine is to subjugate all men .. and make them my slaves.

I might have a few pleasure bots, a few to keep house, cook, bring home the bacon or the vegan bacon .. I do love foot massages, well lets be honest massages in general.

But yes, truly evil intent knows no bounds Razz my magic cast a spell on you 😎

In fact that longing you feel for the Cail Meister 😉 also me 🤷‍♀️ Razz call it pay back of the horriblest, meaniest kind.

Oh yeah you know how you all complain about my not reading your shit ... well yeah, I intentionally delight in upsetting your little red wagons ... its all part of my master plan ... plus I like being on top ... so nut it up lads .. for what little time you have left 😉

I is out for your blood .. oh yeah apologies, Im a vampiress too. Meh ... 🤷‍♀️it is what it is, no? 🙄 Razz
🤷‍♀️
😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘
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