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How Does Evolution Produce Consciousnes/Reason?
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Zarathustra
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the fact that you couldn't have complex lifeforms to ask these questions if there were no organizational principles many levels "below" the level of our lives doesn't answer the question of why it should be this way. You're saying that it could be no other way. I'm saying, yes it could. A universe without mathematical order would look very different, and we probably wouldn't exist in it, but I speculate that such a universe is much more likely to exist than one that just so happens to follow mathematical patterns (if we assume that universe creation is random, and itself not dependent upon an even greater mystery of how that process is mathematical, too).

It's not enough to say it was a freak accident. That explains nothing. To think that the genesis of order itself was a random event seems inherently contradictory.

There are structures even in our universe which don't depend upon this much structure. Take my beach example. Sure, the individual placement of each grain of sand is constrained by the laws of physics. But a beach could still be a beach without those grains of sand lying in just that pattern. There are an infinite combination of grains of sand that could comprise a beach. So in order for it to be such, it doesn't require those underlying laws of physics to such a degree. Let's imagine a universe where there are no quantum physics, no subatomic particles, no atoms or electrons . . . just grains of sand. You could still have a beach and yet completely wipe out half of physics.

"But the universe wouldn't be like this" argument misses the point. It's certainly possible to have many different kinds of universes.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are reading too much into what I'm saying. I'm not saying:
-There can't be other universe's without the properties of ours.
-There can't be other universe's without consistent properties.
-There can't be other universe's with life without the properties of ours.
-There can't be other universe's with intelligence without the properties of ours.

I am saying there can't be a universe with life or intelligence without consistent properties.

I also am not saying it was a freak accident. At least not the way you're saying; that it's the only universe, and how unutterably unlikely that the only one happens to be like it is, and have us in it. I imagine any number of freak accidents, with wildly different results, and wildly similar results, and ours is one of them. And it happens to have the characteristics it has.

Like you, I'm speculating. Smile But I feel pretty safe. In any case, I won't be proven wrong.

But I have to check out your new thread. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But arent you saying that chaos cannot exist with order?

Because of physical laws that all matter MUST adhere to?

If that is correct, I believe Z has a stronger argument in that randomness AND chaos can exist WITH order and also could operates within physical laws.

I remember reading somewhere however, that even decay and entropy though may resemble disorder or chaos ... in fact disintegrate to form a new order. So maybe Im wrong anyway.

But how dont chaos and order mutually coexist? What is evidence of chaos and order mutually coexisting? I can think of evidence of decay and order but not precisely chaos 🤔

And ultimately any example of possible chaos is arguably more simply evidence of our lack of understanding of the particular laws that any example of chaos or disorder demonstrates 🤷‍♀️

And THAT is far more likely than perhaps even the existence of chaos itself.

But there is far more examples of randomness than chaos. Zs sand beach example is a good one of how such outcomes are and can introduce infinite variation.

Randomness and Order may be a better concept than chaos and order. Particularly if chaos is in fact an absence of order?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaos systems are not actually chaotic. The weather is a good example. It is deterministic. It does not rain for no reason, or unpredictably. The weather anywhere in the world a month from today will have been caused by things that we can see and understand. But, long range, we can't predict it, and can't come up with a program that can. Because the initial conditions (the weather everywhere on earth now) and the variables (everything that affects the weather: volcanic activity; automobiles; a butterfly gossiping is wings; and pretty much everything else) are far to numerous and complex.

Quantum events, otoh, seem truly random. Why does one particular particle decay, but not another? Afaik, there is no reason. It is uncaused, and unpredictable. And yet, all of reality is built on it. In large numbers, quantum events are consistent and predictable. Despite being uncaused, in numbers, they follow a mathematical formula. Somehow, order is forced on them.

Personally, I don't see a reason to expect that the same math we find in lower levels is found in higher levels. I don't see why it is unexpected, or significant, that this is the case. A higher level is built on a lower level. What reason would there be for inconsistency?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting comments Fist. The weather is a curious example .. and though there are examples of deterministic events that occur that are ALSO random and unpredictable.. like throwing a dice 🎲

Its each outcome that cant be predicted even though rolling a dice is affected by physical and mathematical laws .. resulting in innumerable or numerable possibilities re outcome.

Is it possible that possibilities arent linear? Ie higher level mathematical order is built on lower levels .. or even that lower level mathematical order is affected by higher order mathematics.

We are talking outcomes though. And trying to reverse engineer them to understand causative connection.

So randomness is an outcome that exists despite physical laws or their governance, hence cant be predicted .. but are NOT uncaused 🤔

Or arguably they may indeed result from said governance AND each physically causative laws that affect it .. so the randomness IS absolutely caused AND yet despite this, cant be predicted .. because of the countless possibilities or variables that will affect each micro outcome.

So randomness has a role to play .. arguably not unlike that of consciousness. You possess it .. a mind .. and because of the countless possibilities and variables in internal and external stimuli .. no one can accurately predict an individuals thoughts .. lets call them outcomes.

To my mind, consciousness is acquired as an evolutionary imperative connected with our physicality. Our bodies are sensory organs that enable environmental awareness .. and consciousness was developed to enable us to navigate our existence in order to survive.

I know thats not the level of detail that you would hope to see .. from this macro view.

But who knows, can we reverse engineer from the big picture perspective to the material minutiae that makes it possible. But we need to move the outcomes affected by randomness to one side.

I dont think they present a stumbling block at all .. to my mind they are less capable of being materially reducible but purely because we or I lack the understanding of the specific laws that govern randomness.

Though even WITH randomness, although specific outcomes may not be easily predicted there would seem to be causative connections, nevertheless.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GF showed me this yesterday...seemed somehow relevant... Very Happy Couldn't decide if it should go here, or in the Simulation thread though...

Quote:
No Self or True Self?Buddhist texts describe how consciousness itself creates the world like a dream or a mirage...


If you read it though, read it all. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:
As he points out, evolution is perfectly reasonable once there are enough varieties of genetic material for natural selection to start "selecting." But the problem is explaining where the variety came from in the first place ... or even where life came from in the first place. DNA is a bewilderingly complex molecule. It isn't immediately obvious how nature would develop a process for building these molecules, a system for chemically reading and replicating them, etc. in the absence of the complex environments we have today that aid in protecting and replicating genes (i.e. multicellular, sexually reproducing creatures).

I've been thinking about this subject a lot the last few (several?) years, and if I ever go back for a PhD in English, it would be the subject of my theory of literary criticism, akin to literary Darwinism, which sadly was never brought up, possibly owing to its relative newness, in any of my English classes. There has to be an underlying principle in the broader, non-biological universe that I think not only allows evolution, since obviously it happens, but encourages it, albeit not so anthropomorphically. I suspect it's a reaction to entropy, but... English major.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fist and Faith wrote:
Chaos systems are not actually chaotic.


Tautologically speaking, chaotic systems are, in fact, chaotic. As it was originally defined, however, (not by the Greeks, I mean) chaos is the sensitivity of open/dynamic systems to changes in initial conditions. They're deterministic and can be modeled given sufficient data and computational power.

Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, is not considered deterministic, but only in the sense that you can't measure the position of a particle without changing its momentum (determining one prevents the determination of the other). It still follows mathematical rules and can be predicted, else we wouldn't be working on quantum computing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:
Chaos systems are not actually chaotic.


Tautologically speaking, chaotic systems are, in fact, chaotic. As it was originally defined, however, (not by the Greeks, I mean) chaos is the sensitivity of open/dynamic systems to changes in initial conditions. They're deterministic and can be modeled given sufficient data and computational power.

Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, is not considered deterministic, but only in the sense that you can't measure the position of a particle without changing its momentum (determining one prevents the determination of the other). It still follows mathematical rules and can be predicted, else we wouldn't be working on quantum computing.


The problems with sensitivity to initial conditions [not with the statment/truth itself, with the long-term consequences] is things quantum/probabilistic arise constantly...any given instant/moment/point can suddenly BECOME a new initial condition. A pure, classic "three body problem" is deterministic. But if ANY element is in any way quantum-influenced, it becomes truly unpredictable and non-determined. Fisty's weather kinda works for one part of unpredictability...so damn many variables and weather more or less sensitive to each...BUT there is a deeper variability/uncertainty of the variables themselves.

A related thing, perhaps...
Some people just showed experimentally, replicably, that quantum shifts/changes:
1) take place WITHIN time...they are not necessarily instantaneous as much of the current assumes [schrodinger hated that assumption/decision].
2) the changes give "clues" in advance.
3) you can STOP it in the middle, and make it change its mind.
The implications are unclear. At this point it takes massive knowledge of states, limits of conditions, to do it...

It might be just a curiousity in the end.

It SEEMS according to some who have looked at it, to be possibly very important/useful [possibly] for making quantum computing work to full potential [which would be massively important going forward at least for people]

A few think it could lead to fundamental changes in the entirety of physics.

All speculative and dependent as things stand.

Also, Syl, other post...somewhere around here I linked to a guy among many dealing with the evolution thing you were talking about...it not only says evolution reacts/relates to entropy, entropy CAUSES evolutionary processes. The "organization" of life isn't contrary to/in defiance of entropy, it occures BECAUSE OF entropic processes. I'll look for it again. Z, IIRC, thought it was pretty cool...at least on the track of the kind of explanation needed...and if Z and I agree...well then... Might's well put it in a book, call it Holy, and found a system. Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Syl] wrote:
There has to be an underlying principle in the broader, non-biological universe that I think not only allows evolution, since obviously it happens, but encourages it, albeit not so anthropomorphically. I suspect it's a reaction to entropy, but... English major.


I tend to lean this way, myself, but it means that we're going against mainstream philosophy of science, which rules out teleological influences in the universe.

However, we already have a blatant violation of that principle right here: us. We have goals, plans, blueprints, intentions. We are bits of matter that move other bits of matter according to a "view" of the future. We ARE teleological. And if we ourselves reduce completely to matter, then matter and the laws which govern it must also be teleological.

So, obviously, we're missing a huge part of reality in our metaphysics (e.g. materialism, reductionism, etc.). I don't understand how this isn't obvious to all scientists. Even if you want to say that free will and consciousness are illusions, that we're actually 100% deterministic and material in every sense (with no emergent "remainders"), then how is it that this determinism/materialism includes what I plan to do next month? How do the laws of physics know that I want to see a Tenacious D concert? I know I will be going. I've purchased my ticket. My body will move to the arena and my sensory organs will capture sound waves of a very specific nature. These are facts that I can predict with stunning accuracy--from the date and time all the way down to the notes that will be played--even though none of those predictions can be derived from the laws of physics. In fact, most events in our global society are like this, emerging out of plans/anticipation for the future, rather than some bottom-up, blind particle explanation. Given enough time and computing power, you might be able to track all the matter that ends up where it does, and show that it all happens in accordance to the laws of physics (i.e. it doesn't violate them), but we don't need any of that information to plan a trip. Billions of people coordinate their movements into the future without any knowledge of the physics involved--because that knowledge is utterly unnecessary. The laws of physics aren't determining that 1000s of people will congregate at a specific arena on a particular date.

Our goals/plans/designs "ride on top of" the laws of physics. We are an emergent phenomenon that has its explanation at an order much higher than that of the particles. Just because we don't violate the laws that govern the motions of those particles doesn't mean that those laws in any way capture or explain the behaviors of these emergent phenomena. Imagine a particle explanation for 1000s of people gathering to see a show! Think of how unwieldy such an explanation would be, going down to the neural level of each person's brain! And now think of everything it would leave out! It would capture nothing about the emotive power of music, the comedic value of Jack Black, the anticipation of mutual appreciation in a live event, or even the bare fact that we have all marked a date on our calendars with the intention of not forgetting (something that would be utterly unnecessary if the laws of physics were actually determining the place/time that all these bodies would congregate).

We wear this world like clothing. When I move myself, my clothing moves with me. But the conjunction of the two movements is trivial, secondary. My clothes will end up at the concert due to the laws of physics, but *I* will end up there for an entirely different set of reasons.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been very busy for a long time, so haven't been to the Watch. First post I read when logging in is that, Z. A nice way to return.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://dailygalaxy.com/2019/09/the-ultimate-mystery-consciousness-may-exist-in-the-absence-of-matter-weekend-feature/amp/

This doesn't give any specific ideas, but it's obviously on topic. I guess thrust of it is a book by Deepak Chopra and physicist Menas Kafatos. Which is a letdown for me. With great anticipation, I tried a book by Chopra once, and was very disappointed. But if anybody is into him, this might be a good one to try. I might try it anyway, since his co-author might temper him for my tastes.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Julian May's Mental Man?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atoning Unifex?!?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
GF showed me this yesterday...seemed somehow relevant... Very Happy Couldn't decide if it should go here, or in the Simulation thread though...

Quote:
No Self or True Self?Buddhist texts describe how consciousness itself creates the world like a dream or a mirage...


If you read it though, read it all. Very Happy

--A


Quote:
Sri Nisargadatta says:

The real world is beyond our thoughts and ideas; we see it through the net of our desires, divided into pleasure and pain, right and wrong, inner and outer. To see the universe as it is, you must step beyond the net. It is not hard to do so, for the net is full of holes.


My own experience on this quote by Sri Nisargadatta is when I realised we never really talk to one another, only to ourselves. It's as if we've created some visceral broadsheet to surround and protect our thoughts. We use this metaphorical wall to reference and cross-reference every idea in order to construct sentences, even before we utter a single sound.
I suspect this basic tension arises primarily from the double helix.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting insight Luke. I love the way youve articulated your take.

I think your take goes a distance further than the quote itself ... and opens up a wealth of discussion fodder and possibilities.

Though I dont follow your comment re the double helix .. are you suggesting the net is made up of the human genome? 🧬
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