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The Mueller Investigation
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The facts re: the Mueller Investigation at this time are as follows:

it did not produce the results Democrats hoped that it would

it did not catch any big fish or produce any smoking guns

most of the charges were levied against Russian officials, none of whom will ever see the inside of a United States courtroom

some of the foundation documents which led to the Mueller Investigation have been discovered to be false

the Attorney General will release the report next week


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The facts re: the Mueller Investigation at this time are as follows:

it did not produce the results Democrats hoped that it would

Lets unpack this FACT. First it wasnt a Democrat Investigation .. so whether or not it met their hopes and dreams is not relevant. This FACT is not a fact relevant to this exercise.

Hashi wrote:
it did not catch any big fish or produce any smoking guns


Ok if we are going to do this we have to take stock of what we to date know.
1. It proved Russian interference
2. It charged 13 Russian nationals who worked for the Russian government
3. It charged 2 additional Russian nationals .. Butina and a lawyer. Fortunately Butina was on US soil and will attend a US court to answer those charges.

The rest I grant you .. in part but we will come back to that part.

Hashi wrote:
most of the charges were levied against Russian officials, none of whom will ever see the inside of a United States courtroom
Very true for the most part .. with the exception of Butina ... but that is not relevant to the FACTS of the investigation.

[quote"Hashi"]some of the foundation documents which led to the Mueller Investigation have been discovered to be false[/quote] Now this is interesting. Some of is not sufficiently specific .. truly if we do want to unpack the relevant facts. Which documents and to fully understand what we are truly looking at we might need more information about the entire scope of what initiated the Investugation.

So ok .. we have "some documents" .. but we know that the investigation was based on intelligence input. So we should look at what that was.

Hashi wrote:
... the Attorney General will release the report next week


Well I doubt we will have much to go on .. but we will have some. My guess is that Barr will redact most of it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only a blind idiot would fail to see why the Obama administration would want to spy on Trump's campaign. Then again, I guess you'll just get surprised again when it eventually comes out that he used a Fisa warrant to wiretap Trump Tower.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOLS .. blind idiot, you say 😉
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The redacted copy of the Mueller Report is now available for the public to read and/or download.

House Democrats are upset about how Barr had a press conference before releasing the report. Truthfully, they were going to be upset in any event, because the report does not give them what they wanted--a smoking gun with which to impeach Trump.

No collusion, no coordination with Russian officials, and no clear evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump, even if some actions he took were not obstruction only because people working for him told him "you can't do that".

Democratic Presidential candidate/hopeful Eric Swalwell--who? *shrug* never heard of him before--wants Barr to resign. That isn't going to happen, Mr. Swalwell.

Anyway, as their reporters read through the pieces of the report they are able to read, CNN is live-updating its main story.

Ultimately, the Investigation really did not produce significant results.

edit/update: It is funny to watch the live updates on CNN--they are reading something nefarious into everything Trump or his staff might have done, said, not done, or not said. They think that everything is suspect--that's actually pathetic.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been listening to NPR on and off today.
Much gnashing about Russian giving hacked DNC and Podesta emails that were damning to Hilliary to Wikileaks and Trump saying he loves Wikileaks......
Guest after guest saying that Trump is the bad guy for....saying he loves Wikileaks......
Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Ive been listening to NPR on and off today.
Much gnashing about Russian giving hacked DNC and Podesta emails that were damning to Hilliary to Wikileaks and Trump saying he loves Wikileaks......
Guest after guest saying that Trump is the bad guy for....saying he loves Wikileaks......
Laughing


And someone got offended in real life when I suggested to them that NPR was biased.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Guest after guest saying that Trump is the bad guy for....saying he loves Wikileaks...... Laughing

It brings them out of the woodwork.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Nadler, chair of the House Judiciary Committee, has issued a subpoena for the entire, unredacted Mueller report and is calling for Mueller to testify before Congress. This is the same Jerry Nadler who, back in the late 90s, was telling everyone that the Ken Starr report was unimportant and that it should not be released.

Anyway, he is within his legal authority to subpoena the report but the Justice Department has until 1 May to respond; they would be within their legal authority, based on how the laws are written, to refuse the subpoena.

I am uncertain what anyone in Congress thinks Mueller is going to say in person that he did not already say in his report.

Democrats simply cannot handle losing. They bet a lot of chips on the report finding some smoking gun they could use to impeach Trump and so they are upset now that they spent all that time and money for nothing.

I will give this thread a few more weeks, time enough for Mueller to testify before Congress and/or the unredacted report to make its way to Congress. Truthfully, the unredacted report is not going to contain any smoking guns, either. After that, I will wind up closing this thread because the report is over and there simply isn't anything to see--another case of "Al Capone's vault".

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

I will give this thread a few more weeks, time enough for Mueller to testify before Congress and/or the unredacted report to make its way to Congress. Truthfully, the unredacted report is not going to contain any smoking guns, either. After that, I will wind up closing this thread because the report is over and there simply isn't anything to see--another case of "Al Capone's vault". [/color]


I really hate the fact that you close threads based on your own personal opinion about the topic being closed.
If someone wants to post about the Mueller report two months or two years from now let them.
Why do we have to create a new thread to talk about the same topic?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I really hate the fact that you close threads based on your own personal opinion about the topic being closed.
If someone wants to post about the Mueller report two months or two years from now let them.
Why do we have to create a new thread to talk about the same topic?


To date, I don't recall that I have ever closed a thread based on my own personal opinions--that's a good point.

You convinced me--the thread stays open.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
I really hate the fact that you close threads based on your own personal opinion about the topic being closed.
If someone wants to post about the Mueller report two months or two years from now let them.
Why do we have to create a new thread to talk about the same topic?


To date, I don't recall that I have ever closed a thread based on my own personal opinions--that's a good point.

You convinced me--the thread stays open.


Sorry, rereading that I don't know why I said "personal opinion".
Sounds strange to me now.
I just don't see any reason to close a thread unless it turns ugly. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
The redacted copy of the Mueller Report is now available for the public to read and/or download.

House Democrats are upset about how Barr had a press conference before releasing the report. Truthfully, they were going to be upset in any event, because the report does not give them what they wanted--a smoking gun with which to impeach Trump.

No collusion, no coordination with Russian officials, and no clear evidence of obstruction of justice by Trump, even if some actions he took were not obstruction only because people working for him told him "you can't do that".

Democratic Presidential candidate/hopeful Eric Swalwell--who? *shrug* never heard of him before--wants Barr to resign. That isn't going to happen, Mr. Swalwell.

Anyway, as their reporters read through the pieces of the report they are able to read, CNN is live-updating its main story.

Ultimately, the Investigation really did not produce significant results.

edit/update: It is funny to watch the live updates on CNN--they are reading something nefarious into everything Trump or his staff might have done, said, not done, or not said. They think that everything is suspect--that's actually pathetic.


Im still reading it and IT IS very interesting. Im still in Volume One .. most are focussed on volume Two, I note.

What struck me in Vol 1 is the number of times members of the Trump campaign including family members had contact with foreign nationals, Russian hackers and operatives AND foreign government officials and did NOT declare it. I wonder if anyone declared it during certain individuals applications for security clearances. I am flabbergasted by that.

But I have much more to read.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
What struck me in Vol 1 is the number of times members of the Trump campaign including family members had contact with foreign nationals, Russian hackers and operatives AND foreign government officials and did NOT declare it. I wonder if anyone declared it during certain individuals applications for security clearances. I am flabbergasted by that.


If the special investigator's team did not see any reason to bring criminal charges against anyone based on these contacts then the rest of us may ignore them, as well. There still isn't much to see that hasn't already been made public.

As noted, the Justice Department has a few weeks to respond to the subpoena for the unredacted version, so it won't be long after Congress gets it that someone will leak it to the press and then we will all have access to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its surely not as easy to dismiss as that?

Mueller makes it very clear that he does not pursue criminal charges against Trump because of the DOJ policy of not indicting a sitting president ... though clearly notes no such protectionist policy applies when he is out of office.

My point is that just because no charges are brought relating to his investigation does NOT denote an absence of wrong doing let alone inappropriate behaviour and practices.

It seems a number of individuals were spared charges simply because the evidentiary documentation was destroyed prior to DOJs access. Thats a shame but a plus for those who skated through by the skin of their teeth.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the Mueller report is very easy to dismiss because it didn't really find anything super important. The people who got charged and sentenced were small fish committing small crimes.

Once Trump is out of office no one will really care whether he faces criminal charges because he will once again be a private citizen and of no consequence.

The Mueller Investigation is important for one reason, though--it may mark the beginning of a ridiculous "tag you're it" game in Washington, D. C. where every new POTUS gets investigated for something.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly doubt that tbh

I am sure given the status of that DOJ policy such investigations would be viewed as futile. I would expect to see a limit on such avenues, using Mueller as precedent in support of such limitations.

The Mueller Investigation identified the really big fish involved in hostile foreign interference with your domestic electoral process. It identified ... I would say every step of that interference, and every foreign national player.

It is clear from the Mueller Report that Russia went to great lengths to interfere in the process and manipulate the outcome.

Charges laid .. make Russia vividly aware that theyve been burned. Sure theyll change tactics but the intel community know now what measures must be implemented to limit foreign national influence and interference.

However, just like terrorists, they are adaptive because they have to be to mitigate detection.

From my perspective only, I see the countess occasions where Manafort attempted to secure Russian assistance to be very concerning indeed and Cohens attempts to secure business opportunities for Trump Holdings during the election campaign also concerning. Not sooo far from Whitewater or whatever the Clinton alleged conflict of interest matter was called ... imv.

I see Volume II as even more an aggravated series of conflict. And if I were Trump Id be concerned about the findings.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The DNC had more to do with foreign individuals in an attempt to influence the outcome of the 2016 election than the Trump Campaign did. The DNC hired a British intelligence officer to compile a now-worthless dossier on Trump which they used to turn the FBI, the FISA Court, and the DoJ into weapons against their political enemies.

That is the legacy of the Mueller Investigation. Any other conclusion is wishful thinking.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree. 😉

And hiring a foreign intelligence agency to compile a dossier on a national figure sounds very odd and not a little skewed.

The FBI would have far greater access to Trump than a foreign intel agency .. why would they outsource such an operation? It seems unlikely and unreasonable.

I dont view the Investigation in the same terms you do at all.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
I disagree. 😉

And hiring a foreign intelligence agency to compile a dossier on a national figure sounds very odd and not a little skewed.

The FBI would have far greater access to Trump than a foreign intel agency .. why would they outsource such an operation? It seems unlikely and unreasonable.

I dont view the Investigation in the same terms you do at all.


Except for the "fruit of the poisoned tree" you are correct, Sky. But even though the FBI would have greater access to Trump, they are bound not to find anything without authorization. If they snooped around, found a dead body in his trunk, and arrested him, but had no warrant for the search of his trunk, then it doesn't work in favor of those who hate him. It would be inadmissible. If they pay Reginald LeSpy from Portugal to do the digging off the books, Reginald leaves a tip about the stench of a dead body in the report, the FBI can then get a warrant to look in the trunk and the gig is up.

Same body, different result. And with the DNC in charge of the hiring, both Clinton Team and Obama White House have no seeming connection to it. I am not sure if they cooked up the idea or not. Regardless, they have clean hands. Unless there is a memo signed by one of them...then they are on the hook.
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