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A Game of Thrones
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Twitter, someone wrote:

In S1E1, Jaime Lannister pushes Bran Stark out of a window.
This is subtle foreshadowing by David Benioff and Dan Weiss
for S8E5, where eight seasons of Jaime's character development
are similarly thrown out the window. #GameOfThrones


On Twitter, someone wrote:

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a good twitter thread, written before the episode aired, about why Cleganebowl would be pointless and undermine the character.
https://twitter.com/chachch_changes/status/1126282915036508160

It says a lot that the show's creators don't realise Cleganebowl was mostly a social media joke, rather than a serious suggestion.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aTOMiC wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:


The last dragon was killed SO easily, but this remaining dragon has an endless supply of luck and fire (maybe the series should be renamed . . . Smile ). And after amassing all her armies for years, it seemed all she ever really needed was one dragon after all. Rolling Eyes



Not really disagreeing however...

To be fair the first two Dragon kills were via ambush tactics.
This last encounter was almost completely on Dany's terms so I have no issue. If anything, with 3 dragons the job would have taken much less time but the loss of her two "children" played a role in her motivations so it was necessary.

Also it may be important to the conclusion that Jon no longer has a Dragon of his own.


It also helps that Euron was the only one actually firing at Drogon while the rest of his fleet sat on their hands. You'd think they'd have been falling over each other to be the one to strike the next killing blow. I thought there was a reason behind Euron just ignoring them as they gathered new ships and sailed around Dragonstone - but apparently he used all his competence up in the last episode and I overestimated both him and Cersei.

Would really have liked to see some PoV from Daenerys - some insight into what was going on in her head.

The Hound's conclusion was what I expected, though not what I wanted. I mean, his brother died horribly and was resurrected and welded into being Cersei's servant. Isn't that punishment enough?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorus wrote:
Would really have liked to see some PoV from Daenerys - some insight into what was going on in her head.

It seemed to me that when the bells rung, Daenerys seemed to be thinking long and hard about what to do before she went all QoD. This tells me that some amount of calculation went into what she did next. Or that she dreaded what she thought she must do next. Or that she had a long fight with her impulses and lost. Or won.

Personally, I think she believed she had to do what she did, but that she knew she would lose Jon in the process, because she was essentially screwing him over.

But then again, I didn't watch the post-show commentary, as it was already past my bedtime. Maybe they explained it.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The post-show explanation made little sense. They said that she saw the Red Keep, this symbol of everything that had been taken away from her all these years, and basically lost it.

I just don't see how a hard won victory, finally achieving what she'd set out to gain 8 years ago, would make her so angry. She didn't have to do it at all. The battle was won. She gained nothing and lost everything.

She has lost much more before, Drogo and her son, to name a few. And those losses always catapulted her to greatness.

She once said she didn't want to rule over ashes. WTF?

Again, I think this could have been made plausible in more capable hands. Donaldson, for instance, would have made it seem tragically inevitable. Martin's books will probably do a much better job. This was rushed, like the entire season (well, except the first two episodes).
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen several youtube videos that go to great lengths describing the foreshadowing of Mad Queen - and that helps a bit.

I didn't like the showrunner's explanation of Dany looking at the Red Keep and losing it. This is the culmination of everything she's worked for over 8 years - so why destroy it?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. She finished the work of her father, who wanted to burn the city but was prevented from doing so by Jaime.

Daenerys changed when she crossed the sea. The freedom she was willing to give to those in Essos she didn't see she needed to give to those in Westeros. They were her subjects. It was far more important for them to bend the knee to her. And, if like Sam's dad, you didn't want to do that, she'd have her dragon breathe on them.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So was it crossing the sea or a change in writers that changed Dany? And yeah, she has done some vicious things before the showrunners had to provide the plot, so I don't think it is completely unjustified. But I'd argue it was unjustified for her to kill a ton of innocents. I'd see her reducing the tower thingy to rubble, but burning all those homes? For the Breaker of Chains? That seems out of character.

Yeah, the latest episode hasn't set well with me, although there were many great scenes (Arya and the horse was a lovely shot scene).

I dunno....this whole season has further illustrated that this series started as a smart, semi-homely young lady who had a lot of great things to say, but she got a makeover, and is now a beautiful empty-headed whore who is no good in bed. I don't think I'd ever say that of another show or movie, but it seems fitting here.
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a terrible episode. Like Z said before, it seems like the dragon, at least in every other episode, has infinite life and ammo and stamina to do EVERYTHING!

Then seeing Dany hear the bells, thinking of weddings only to realize that her nephew will never love her in that way again, decide to just go, first and foremost, and kill a bunch of the civilians farthest from the Red Keep was out of character. Unless that character was just emo about not being lovable so why shouldn't everything burn?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which brings up a good point... Is there even an "Iron Throne" anymore? Was Dany trying to take it away from everyone because she could not have it?

I think it's safe to say that the physical Iron Throne went down under a pile of crushing stones like a Samwell under a pile of zombie beserkers. So it should be no more. (But you never can tell with this season.)

I think it's safe to say the physical Seat of the Iron Throne, King's Landing, is also no more.

How much does this mean for there ever being a One King/Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? Would such a title now be meaningless or at least without consequence? Will it revert to Seven independent Kingdoms? Could everyone now decide to just set up an enlightened democracy?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragonstone was the original Targaryen seat of power.

Which makes me wonder if Varys didn't have one last trick up his sleeve - though they have a lot of loose ends to tie up and I'm trying (not entirely successfully) not to overthink things.

The conversation he had with his little spy, plus the focus on him removing his rings right before he was arrested - were those purple gems the same poison that was used earlier in the series?
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other weird thing about the episode. They kept showing bursts of green flame among the other fires, and it seemed to be seeing those that prompted Jon to call a withdrawal at the end. I was expecting this to mean the Wildfire had caught light and the whole city was about to go up... but it didn't happen. No real attention was called to the green fire, there was no specific reminder in the episode that the Wildfire was still in the city (it hasn't been mentioned since the s6 finale). It was almost as if the green flames were just some afterthought put in by the special effects team, with no real consequence. (Like, maybe someone reminded them the stuff existed and they were like "oh shit, we better put something in there".)
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still confused by Cersei's motivations for this whole story arc. She'd already lost just about everything that mattered to her, and her days were probably numbered no matter what. I can see her taking an if I'm going down, I'm taking all of you with me stance, but what outcome did she actually envision? Did she expect to win? She passed up multiple opportunities to kill Daenerys before the rest of the army showed up. She could have spun it as saving the city - and been right.
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I wasn't all that thrilled with it.

Of course, Danerys' father was completely mad and cruel. And her brother (the one the Dothraki "crowned") was cut from the same cloth. Seem to recall it ran in the family too, so maybe she did just lose it. (As pointed out above, she already got a taste for burning people...)

That said, still out of character for her.

The rest was pretty meh. Many meaningful looks from Jon, Arya surviving more things being dropped on her than Wile E Coyote, (assume she will try for Danerys now), etc.

Also noted the unlimited dragon fire. (And I see fire is now exploding stone...was more like a death ray than a blast of flame.)

Maybe Martin will one day finish the series, somehow avoid being influenced by the series, and we can see what was really supposed to happen.

Last episode obviously Jon vs Danerys...Question is whose side will Tyrion end up on?

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the first thing we will see Tyrion due is hand over his Hand pin and resign. Probably with a comment like 'you can burn me with dragon-fire if you want to'.
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
I think the first thing we will see Tyrion due is hand over his Hand pin and resign. Probably with a comment like 'you can burn me with dragon-fire if you want to'.


I'm worried for Tyrion, and for Ser Davos, too. I'm afraid Dany will burn them both.

And, as the meme said a few years ago, if Tyrion dies, we riot.

My prediction for Dany is that she will be poisoned by the little bird. I'm perfectly fine with that. I hope she gets The Strangler.

After that, I have no earthly idea. I don't like the theory that Bran will rule. Jon may be forced to, or maybe Gendry, as Robert's un-bastard heir.
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
And, as the meme said a few years ago, if Tyrion dies, we riot.

If that's still true, it's a hold-over from before when Tyrion was enjoyable to watch. He's hasn't been the "I drink, and I know things" guy in a while.
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still stand by what I said earlier. Jon will rule, and will hate it.

I suspect Tyrion's days are numbered.

But enough of that. How would everybody like to see it end?

Mine:
All the main characters are in a pub, Dany has trouble landing the dragon, but gets out, and walks in to the pub. You hear the music of the Coldplay Game Of Thrones musical playing in the background, and Dany walks over to Jon Snow's table. The screen goes black.
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had a horrifying thought. There exists a real possibility that the final line of this series will be King Jon Snow saying "Winter is coming". Throwup
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:


Of course, Danerys' father was completely mad and cruel. And her brother (the one the Dothraki "crowned") was cut from the same cloth. Seem to recall it ran in the family too, so maybe she did just lose it. (As pointed out above, she already got a taste for burning people...)



Yeah, but the whole thing about the sight of the Red Keep triggering sudden-onset Mad Queen-itis just seems a bit... cheap - especially after all she endured in the name of character development. I think it's even in the books that Aerys didn't lose it overnight - it was more a gradual descent. I could absolutely see her gunning for Cersei and a few others, but making Cersei watch her raze the whole city - after they'd surrendered (essentially bending the knee) - was it too little, too late? Maybe they didn't love her and maybe they didn't need rescuing, but she was capable of charisma and diplomacy as well as BBQing the folks who got on her bad side.

I'm Murrin wrote:
I was expecting this to mean the Wildfire had caught light and the whole city was about to go up... but it didn't happen.


Same. I wonder if a scene was cut.
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