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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what is hardest for free thinkers who cherish being challenged in their deepest convictions. The idea that the knuckle dragging silencing of dissent isn't an unintended consequence of the actions of supposedly liberal and intelligent people, who will realize the error of their ways if it is carefully explained to them. But as more and more of these dried husks of thought pop up around the web where verdant dialogue once grew wild, we must come to surmise that this is exactly how they want it to be. They just don't want to admit it, or obviously be called on it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I believe I made the comment about free speech not being free .. and globally not viewed the same as it is in the US.

Ive made this point on several threads. I stand by that fact because it is a fact 😉

Hearty debate does NOT require verbal abuses, ad hominem attacks or any of that bullshit. Anyone who says it does does not know how to interact with humans .... period .. whether online or offline in the real worl ... and I feel very sorry for them.

Its not about politics or opinions or any of that bullshit either. None of that has changed. Its not, nor has ever been about silencing opposing thought, silencing a particular political bent either. If so, that political persuasion would be silenced today and it most certainly is not. Conservatism and Libertarianist views are alive and well .. as they are still the dominant perspective in the Tank today.

Nano
... you have not failed. But you also dont need to work at being confrontational .. ideas in themselves have the power to be confrontational.

SB
Im sorry that you feel rubbed up the wrong way. Yes it would be worthwhile for everyone, including you to look at the facts.

The facts are Cail was asked not to use ad hominem attacks. He was asked a number of times since I returned. Av warned Cail on at least two occasions afaicr to restrain himself from such tactics. Others here also asked Cail to take it down a notch.

Cail disregarded Avs comments, multiple times, along with the comments of a few other posters who also asked the same of Cail.

Cail did not believe he needed to comply with a request from the Watch Admin. I dont believe Cail believed he needed to comply with a request from anyone, to reign in the unnecessary personal comments. Not even if such a request came from the mod of this forum himself.

If I am recalling this correctly, Av was on leave at the time. Av returned and read a post of Cails where he had again employed those tactics he had been asked multiple times, not to. Av made the decision to follow through with his warning .. and banned Cail.

No one knew what Av had decided till he took HIS decision to the other mods for their input.

I am very sure few believed ANY action would ever be taken against Cails choice of personally demeaning others.

If you are unable to understand how this decision was arrived at, I quite honestly dont know what to tell you.

Z
... its all well and good to list complaints.. but what is to be gained by doing so? You complain that your fellow posters are dumb, light weights, you accuse people .. but mention no one and no specific circumstances in support of your accusations.

Its easy to sit back and complain. People do that ALL the time. Civility is about being friendly, welcoming, good hosts, lets look at a list of synonyms

Quote:
synonyms: courtesy, courteousness, politeness, good manners, mannerliness, gentlemanliness, chivalry, gallantry, graciousness, consideration, respect, gentility,
urbanity, cordiality, geniality, pleasantness, affability,
politesse,
rarecomity

You can be passionate, even heated about an issue, an opinion and retain a civil tongue in your head, as my grandfather used to say 😉

Hashi
I dont know what your personal world is like but mine was never, post or prior to Cails banning, a reflection of the Tank.

I guess it could simply be that down under its a much nicer place 😉 😛 ... but people dont get in each others faces to make a point.

In fact from my long life experience ... its a fairly respectable society that we have. We have the odd wanker here and there .. but we recognise them AS such.

I worked in an arguably adversarial vocation .. but never stooped to ad hominem attacks or other groundless unprofessional abuses. In fact I dealt respectably with the most vile of humans. Such was required.

I often thought that in real life this sort of issue would never happen face to face. I still think that aamof. I think if we were having some of the discussions we have here (not protected by the thin veil of anonymity) ... and all of us are down the pub, we would be laughing our arses off over some of this churlish ridiculous shit and we would no doubt be debating heartily without the BS that occurs here, Cail included.

Indeed my interactions with Cail were entirely different via pm to the shit we dealt with each other here. I personally had the opportunity to see and appreciate Cail in a completely different light. I was disappointed that ended.

Nihilo
... all is not as you seem to think it is. Again its never been about silencing OPPOSITION. That is an arguably convenient assessment for you to assert but it is demonstrably false.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously guys? Laughing

Back to this again?

SoulBiter wrote:
I haven't posted on this message board since March. I don't like being told to shut up or get out. It rubs me the wrong way.


Funny thing, a lot of other people feel the same way. I suppose how any given person feels about it depends entirely on who is doing the telling, and who is being told huh?

As for contention, I feel my usual point applies...it's possible to be contentious without being insulting or demeaning. If somebody needs to belittle the other to make their own point seem stronger or more valid, or to feel smarter, perhaps the problem is not with the argument.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also not posted here for months - so, consider this a one-off - and rightly or wrongly intend to continue with that stance. It's certainly right as far as I am concerned - as an effective "consumer" I am exercising the only power within my remit as a means of protest - my inalienable right not to give this place my "custom", given what's gone on.

Zee has - as is pretty typical - got it bang on in his last few posts here. Sure there are lies, damn lies and statistics - but the last quarter's figures show a marked trend that I firmly believe to be statistically significant. The Tank's been emasculated and seems to be heading toward the point of insipid and inactive stagnation - a GroupThink echo chamber. What have you wrought?

Zee's bang on again with the cogent irony of his analogy with TCOTC. This is not new news - somewhere on this board there's a post from me applying a Jungian individuation analysis of the Chrons (I also somewhat tongue in cheek compared it to the classic Star Trek episode The Enemy Within). You could also pick Eloi/Morlock as your comparative or countless other examples. Fact remains, Zee's drawn analogy absolutely nails it.

The catalyst of discord is both desirable and necessary - and this is hardly new news. Perhaps some should take a minute to look up the dialectical method? Thesis - antithesis - synthesis. Stifling more troublesome discourse - so one doesn't have to hear it, let alone deal with it, let alone get value from it - is no better than nanny state protectionism. In fact, it's far worse. It's ideological "protectionism".

I also totally agree with SB's assessment above.

Yes, Av - this again. I'm still pissed. It's still unjustifiable. It's still (unsurprisingly and now provably) counter-productive. It's still an important issue to me...

...and I'm demonstrably not alone.

A final thought - for all that Cail's banning is determinedly portrayed by some involved in it as not being personally or politically motivated, it still remains both fair and factual to state that a less left-leaning (and more catalytic, more thoughtful, more articulate and more discussion-provoking, but hey, let's discount all that as worthless) voice got perma-banned from the Tank. Removed from ongoing Tank existence. With no hope of return.

Given this, it'd be interesting to hear the leanings of those of a more leftish persuasion on the death penalty... or parole, for that matter.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL

No silencing practices or policies EXIST in the Watch Laughing

This is perpetuating a furphy, a lie, a deception .. but one wonders why?

Further .. if it were political AND motivated for political purposes ... thered be no Hashi, no Nano, no RR, no Z, no Nihilo, no The Fallen, no SB, no Urdead, no any other conservative right leaning Watchers 🙄🤦‍♀️ No? 🤷‍♀️

Thered be a brilliant sea of optimism and liberalism 😉 Razz 😎
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
No silencing practices or policies EXIST in the Watch
..which doesn't discount the possibility of one such action having been taken or at least lobbied for, but that wasn't my point at all.

Skyweir wrote:
... thered be no Hashi, no Nano, no RR, no Z, no Nihilo, no The Fallen, no SB, no Urdead, no any other conservative right leaning Watchers 🙄🤦‍♀️ No? 🤷‍♀️

Thered be a brilliant sea of optimism and liberalism 😉 Razz 😎
Well - leaving aside an all too typical misusage of the term "liberalism" - looking at the names you reasonably list, things are already halfway to achieving a dead space Eloi GroupThink echo chamber.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always, the truth is what we believe.

Anyway, just randomly stumbled across this and thought it may be relevant to the revived discussion:

https://medium.com/s/story/its-not-enough-to-be-right-you-also-have-to-be-kind-b8814111fe1

--A
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice read 👍

The Fallen .. lol 😂 .. those names you obviously refer to belong to those who are censuring themselves. No one has silenced them THEY have clearly chosen to be SILENT. 🤷‍♀️

The Tank remains dominated by US Libertarians and Conservatives even despite that.

The point is ... its NOT political .. it was never political. Its not about silencing opposition .. opposition to what exactly? Your point about it serving the left leaning Watchers holds zero water .. particularly given the left remain a minuscule body in the Tank.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AV -
Quote:
This again?
That's what you have to say? Double down again... Black 13 with all the chips and spin the wheel, huh?

Sky - I was censured. Do you really want me to search out the posts where I and others were told to (paraphrasing for effect) "Shut the F up about this or leave"? So your well meaning platitudes fall flat for me.
But you are right, it was never political and it was never about silencing the opposing side. It was personal. It was about some long time hurt feelings that had been festering for some time and thin skin. A perma-ban. Come on! This is not the only message board I have frequented over the years and a perma-ban has always been an extreme way of dealing with someone.

Contrary to what you are saying, the Tank is no longer dominated by either side. Because the silence is deafening.

I don't speak for anyone but me but I will be concise on my issues with this whole thing.

A perma-ban was not appropriate to the offense.

Telling your posters to shut up or get out is wrong.

Taking this out of the Tank moderator's hands was also wrong. His hiatus not withstanding this wasn't such a big deal that you couldn't wait until his return. It might have given everyone a moment to cool off and react better. He hasn't asked for it and may not want it, but he is due an apology.

Treating the drop off of posting as if it were just some kind of normal up and down when its obviously a reaction to your own actions shows me where you are. But also note the most active thread right now is.... oh yeah, that would be this one. Why is that?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+JMJ+

Avatar wrote:
SoulBiter wrote:
I haven't posted on this message board since March. I don't like being told to shut up or get out. It rubs me the wrong way.


Funny thing, a lot of other people feel the same way. I suppose how any given person feels about it depends entirely on who is doing the telling, and who is being told huh?

[...]



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr, I cant be bothered to do anything but cut and paste articles from the web rather than have an opinion about anything, all of a sudden finds his sarcasm. It doesn't surprise me that this is all you have to post. Reminds me of
Welcome back Kotter, the guy from the other school that never had his own opinion. It was always "My man say, (insert text here)"
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SB
I dont know what to tell you.

Was Cails ad hominem attacks personal?

Pretty sure they were intended to be. Could Cail have chosen to not use ad hominem attacks ... cant see any reason why not.

Should warnings issued by the Board Admin have been sufficient to indicate that ad hominem attacks should end? Should have been, no? How many warnings do you think would be sufficient? How many times would you ask somebody to refrain from getting personal?

If you were Admin and you had given numerous nudges over the years, followed by requests to NOT get personal .. which of course ad hominem attacks are intended to be .. and the member ignored you, disregarded simple requests .. what would you do?

If you then doubled down ... and issue warning after warning ... and they are completely disregarded .. then what?

You, SB ... say you are personally offended at reading ONE solitary post that may or may not even have been directed at you ... that told you to suck it up or leave ... and THAT you use as justification for your claim that youve been silenced?

Ironic that some consider being on the pointy end of ad hominem attacks is .. thin skinned?

How do you rationalise that great divide?
..........

Wos made a point in citing Av .. and that point is exactly this.

Av has explained ad nauseum his decision.

Was it supported? Apparently it was. Im not a mod, Im not sure if you are ... but if you are you would know this I guess.

You feel you have been rubbed the wrong way ... AND are personally offended by that ... yet have no time for others who may feel precisely the same having been rubbed the wrong way by Cail 🤔 how is that remotely reasonable?

I get it ... Cail is a buddy ... you miss him. There are things I miss about Cail ... his ad hominem attacks not being among those things.

But then you werent on the receiving end of Cails unnecessary personal commentary, were you? Apparently a significant number of other Watchers were. A significant number of Watchers left the Board entirely because of it and the adversarial nature of the Tank ... or perhaps you could say ... they too were silenced, no?

Silenced by Cail and others like Cail .. who feel they have a god given right to be personally offensive, to be demeaning of fellow Watchers. How is that right or fair or even remotely reasonable?

Id far rather have Cail here posting without all that unnecessary bullshit .. but sadly it was Cails choice not to dispense with it. Cails choice to ignore the nudges, the requests and the warnings. And because of those choices we as a Watch are deprived his presence.

Id wager London to a brick most Watchers would have preferred Cail was here posting like a demon ... without all the unnecessary BS.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoulBiter wrote:
Taking this out of the Tank moderator's hands was also wrong. His hiatus not withstanding this wasn't such a big deal that you couldn't wait until his return. It might have given everyone a moment to cool off and react better. He hasn't asked for it and may not want it, but he is due an apology.


No one owes me anything, but thank you for the sentiment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been getting a lot of work done, and I come back for a slight break, and then this. And I'm too stupid to not take the bait.

SoulBiter wrote:
Sky - I was censured. Do you really want me to search out the posts where I and others were told to (paraphrasing for effect) "Shut the F up about this or leave"?


Actually, I would. Here's all I found in the "shut the F up about this or leave" category:

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:
Now...that being said, let us let that be the last of it in public. For any more commentary we should resort to PM.


sgt.null wrote:
Anyone has a problem with what went
On can cart themselves elsewhere.
This isn't a free speech issue. It is a
Community standards issue. You don't
Want to abide by the minimal standards
Here? Join Breitbart. That is as polite
As I'm going to be.


Both of these folks are people that share political leanings with you, and are both on the very first page on this very thread.

The closest I could find from anybody not on your "side" are these, and if you read them closely enough, you can see that they DON'T say shut up and leave.

Skyweir wrote:
The WATCH made its call .. but up, move on or dont... thats YOUR CALL. There are places I am sure that welcome senseless, pointless trolling. Its done.


Avatar wrote:
So, please stop it. And anybody who wishes to discuss the issue reasonably is free to do so, either in the new thread or whatever (and wherever) this ends up, or, as I have said before, privately with me.


Avatar wrote:
The thread is here for anybody who wants to discuss it civilly, and hopefully we have all gotten the cheap shots out of our systems now


Cagliostro wrote:
I've been banned from a message board before for being a very obnoxious politically charged idjit back in around 2000, calling people idiots for not voting third party. It was a board owned by one person and there were two or three other generals that all had enough of my shit. I don't remember all the details, but one person was a bit of a jerk to me that was a friend to the owner, and I served back what I was given. I complained and complained about how I was being treated unfairly and so forth, and was told in so many words, "if you don't like it here, then why do you stick around?" Which pissed me off all the more and made me dig in deeper. I was soon banned and told that the owner of the board had enough of my shit, and since she owned it, she got to decide who she wanted having fun on it. It pissed me off at the time, and I thought it was so unfair, but later realized that I was acting like a dick, and that I was tilting my lance at windmills.
I bring this up not to be a dick that says "if you don't like it here, then why do you stick around?" but to demonstrate that us mods and the people who actually can make these changes have a duty to make a forum that is palatable to the most people possible.


Yes, mine is the longest. Smile But it also is the reason I have been very sensitive to this issue, and that my memory, which isn't foolproof, tells me that this did not happen, at least from the people you think it did. Please prove me wrong, and I will happily concede on this point. Otherwise, shut the F up about this or leave. Smile
I did only go through the first 10 pages of this thread, and didn't look at other threads, so you do have a good chance at finding something.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sky - you are right. You don't get it.

I don't like the way it was handled and I have spoken out about that. But early on and still, I support the fact that it was not my decision to make. I (as well as Z, TF and others) also pointed out the fall out from this. We have also pointed out the hypocrisy of saying it was Cails fault others didnt come here and yet where are they all? Where is this deluge of posts we should be seeing?

Cag - Since you went ahead and found some I don't see any reason to look at the rest. It doesn't matter how you phrase it, it means the same thing. It doesn't matter to me which side of the political spectrum here that comes from. It still the same to me.

Quote:
The WATCH made its call .. but up, move on or dont... thats YOUR CALL. There are places I am sure that welcome senseless, pointless trolling. Its done.



Have you considered that if you (and the others) had not made statements like the above, that most of us would have let this go long ago and moved on to continue to post as was the norm, on our own?

Edit to add - I think I have said all I have to say on this matter. It feels all so much like we are talking in circles but not hearing each other. I don't know what I expected from this.. maybe an acknowledgement that the whole thing could have been handled better. In RL I manage Managers. I would give a poor review to the management of this situation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just vote to close the Tank down?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ur-Nanothnir wrote:
Why not just vote to close the Tank down?


People like to discuss politics and current events; it would simply open again under a different name.
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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isnt there a saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome?

Yes Cags is right that was a HARSH comment from me .. I dont even remember making it. In my defence... I WAS sick of the unfounded accusations and conspiracy theories, the accusations of silencing free speech, the seeking to blame everyone BUT Cail for HIS banning. Nevertheless it was a harsh comment to make.

My statement however was reinforcing two key points 1. What you decide is YOUR call to make and 2. The Watch made ITS call.

To my mind it was a sound call .. and tbh what latitude did Av have left? To do nothing ... would reinforce Cails belief he can say and do wetf he likes to anyone here ... as there would zero consequences for him. Just him though, it would seem. Others have been banned for far less. And some were banned at Cails request.

I think things could have been done differently ... of course they could have. In an ideal world Hashi might not have lost the job he loved, maybe he would have shared his circumstances, so the Admin and Mods would have known what was going on there, Cail could have not been a dick to people, you all could have interpreted the support of friends for what it was etc.

Would that have changed the outcome? To be honest I very much doubt it ... because the Admin made their call before talking to anyone about it.

SB I never said I didnt get it 😉 but cheers ... I said I dont know what to tell you. I hear your frustration, your disappointment over Cails banning, and how you view it was handled.

A number of you have said that Cails banning is the reason you dont come to the Watch or post in the Tank anymore ... yet here you all are.

If you stay ... great 👍 if you dont ... I respect that it is your call to make.

As I said above, Id very much have preferred Cail be here and be posting here ... but without all the unnecessary bullshit. He was requested to cease and desist .. he chose not to.

As a manager of managers, what would you have done with a employee that refused to be a ... team player ... whatever that would mean to YOU in your workplace? An employee that you asked to work on a particular issue identified by not just you but others also. Would you send him mixed messages? Would you expect him to work on improving that issue? And if it was clear he disregarded you, your role AND other employees concerns ...what would you have done then?

Cail forced Avs call. There are posts here in this thread stating that Cail orchestrated his own banning. Its ridiculous actually ... but there is truth to it. Cail made his choices .. as do we all. And sadly none of us can escape the consequences that result.
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Last edited by Skyweir on Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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FindailsCrispyPancakes
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savor Dam wrote:
Always glad to see a new member. Intrigued by one who joined today (and is four posts in, so you're not just commenting on this thread), but is well-enough read on the forum to be so forthright about what they're observing here.

Looking forward to hearing more of your input.

May you thrive here...and continue to contribute.


*Raises glass and lights a joint*

Cheers. Pleased to meet you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the rest of you...

FindailsCrispyPancakes wrote:
You guys sure do bicker a lot, don't you?
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