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A Game of Thrones
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Damelon
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm Murrin wrote:
Can't help thinking the only reason Arya got to kill the Night King is because they realised they didn't have anything else significant for her to do in this season.


By the same token, what had Jon done all season until the scene with Dani?

Wayfriend wrote:
Arya isn't leaving to get away, she's leaving to test herself and fulfill her ambitions. That's not sad. Also: there's the sequel!


Not a lot of work for assassins after the war. I was glad her arc went the way it did. I'd hoped her talk with the Hound had meant something.

Now a bit of musing. One thing perhaps only important to me is that I remembered something while listening to Arya's plans. The fall of Granada, the last remaining muslim city in Spain and which ended the Spanish reconquista, occurred in 1492. The year of Columbus' voyage and the marking more or less of the end of the medieval period. I would think GRRM would be cognizant of that. The early voyages after Columbus brought a lot of unemployed soldiers from that war west. Perhaps Arya's voyage will be more peaceful...
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's always work for assassins.
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damelon wrote:

By the same token, what had Jon done all season until the scene with Dani?


Honestly, in the end, we were all waiting for Jon to do something wonderful throughout the whole series, and overall, most of what he did was somewhat inspire, but never really delivered. His biggest victories through the whole of the series was bringing people together that needed to be brought together, and then killing Dany, which wasn't his idea and he didn't really want to do it. He would have died at the Battle of the Bastards if not for Sansa and Littlefinger. It seemed a show set up to put him in the seat of power, but did they do what they did because he wasn't actually that good, or did they do it to buck convention for no other reason than to avoid expectations? I kinda feel the latter.
I can't seem to stop picking at this story, and it unravels more and more each time I do. I get that the council members wanted something different, but do they really expect Bran to be that? If there is a threat to the realm, would he be up to it? He pretty much just sat there waiting for the Night King. He contributed nothing but knew he was going to be alright. He didn't really share his information. Did Bran inspire anything other than annoyance or boredom from anybody? Jon at least was inspirational, and always tried to do the right thing. Yes, he would be the best choice of "more of the same," but provided outside forces don't realize that there is a weakness in leadership on the throne and try to overthrow it, after Bran goes, there will probably be a completely different council who may want something more traditional. So with Bran, they are just kicking the can down the road until someone awful comes into power and things return to the crap world they were trying to subvert. The hearts of man didn't change with a different ruler. I'd be surprised if Bran lasted 20 years on the throne. At least Jon showed some prowess on the field.
It does make me rethink the democracy aspect that was laughed off earlier in the episode. At least with democracy, people feel like they have a say in their leadership.
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jul 2, 2013 - One thing Game of Thrones (GoT) does better than any other story today is subvert your expectations. This is the secret sauce that makes it one of the most popular and pirated shows of all time.

That was written after Season 3, BTW. It's been discussed ever since.

Certainly season 8 delivered on that. We all expected great success for Dany and Jon. Subverted.

Unfortunately...

We all expected Cersei to be be dangerous. Subverted.
We all expected Jaime to complete some sort of redemption. Subverted.
We all expected Bran to do some Three-Eyed Raven badassery. Subverted.
We all expected brutal, back-stabbing carnage for the Throne right up until the end, where one man or women through luck, tenacity, boldness, and ruthlessness emerges as the victor. Instead, we have a boring committee who selects a King by vote. Subverted!

We expected a kick-ass final season. Subverted.

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So how do you know when and when not to subvert something in a story? I can tell you that many amateur and novice writers pick the wrong story elements. They think they're adding a twist, when they're just breaking their story.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my question is:

To whom does the Night's Watch belong?

The wall was built by the North and didn't become the North of the Seven Kingdoms until the Targaryens showed up. So with Sansa taking the North as its own Kingdom, does the Wall go with her (the edifice of Brandon the Builder Stark) or does it still function as a Westerosi camp hemming in the North from expansion to the Wildling territory? And, at one point, the Wildlings were given the Gift by Jon (which would be North of Sansa's Kingdom if it is part of the 6 kingdoms of Bran) and Jon is now the King beyond the wall and in charge of the True North, with trading possible via the posts at the wall and within the Gift? So many questions.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is he though? Jon now the King beyond the wall? We see him ride off with the wildlings but he could be simply re settling them and he might still be indebted to the Nights Watch?

Has Wall and the Nights Watch ever belonged to any of the kingdoms? Its rule and existence seems to have always been seen as seperate and independent. I recall even King Robert slash Joffrey couldnt command the Nights Watch.

I 100 percent agree with Wayfriend point about subverting expectations. The books and the show have always been good at that.

I think we do desperately want a purpose and meaning .. but thats precisely what Ive always loved about the books. They dont give you a higher purpose and meaning .. just like real life shit happens. Bad guys, dumb guys win .. good guys dont. Some accomplish great things or A solitary ok thing .. and go on to be fairly ordinary humans living fairly ordinary lives. 🤷‍♀️ I am not dissatisfied with the books at all or the show.

The story is what it is. Sure Id have LOVED TC to not have died in the original series .. but he did. 🤷‍♀️ That was the story.

The good news for me is that there are more storylines in the world and I look forward to them.

There was a video going round Facebook that simply tied up the perceived loose ends and it was a nice to have .. as it added an extra level of closure. If you see it .. I think it is worth a watch.
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Horrim Carabal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are still talking GoT?

The books are okay. Nothing special. They're like a dumbed-down version of Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen.

The tv show was okay as well. It went downhill long before the final season. The final season was just bad.

Let's move on. In a few years no one will remember this, it's no classic.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horrim Carabal wrote:
People are still talking GoT?


No.

Why do you ask (and then go on to talk about GOT)?

Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HC ... not your cups tea?

Me, I loved the books to date .. doubt there will be any more .. but prepared to eat my words if Martin does get around to delivering the rest of the series.

GOT is pretty established as a classic mostly due to its huge popularity, high end budget and sizeable fan following .. for both books and the tv series imv of course.

and the many spin offs will likely be of a similar ilk.

Personally cant wait for the next instalments of the GOT universe.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:

GOT is pretty established as a classic mostly due to its huge popularity


Popular doesn't equal classic.

I stand by what I said. A Song of Ice and Fire is a dumbed-down Malazan Book of the Fallen.

And I'm not even a massive Erikson fan. I just think Erikson does everything Martin does, only better.

But a tv adaptation of MBotF would flop because it's at a higher intellectual level than Martin.

My personal tastes run more along the lines of Donaldson, Kay, & Williams.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think popularity has a lot to do with something being a classic. Is it as good as Donaldson? Hell no. But then classic rock isn't as good as prog rock, either.

I think a lot of us here were just happy to see fantasy treated seriously, with a big budget, and presented as something with widespread appeal, not just something for fantasy geeks like us. Laughing Jackson certainly pulled in audiences with his LOTR, but it still had a huge geek factor. No one could accuse the casual GOT fan of being a D&D nerd.

I've only read one Malazon, but it seemed like old school D&D/Dragonlance fanfic to me. I've got to put it back on my to read list.
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Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do-back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarathustra wrote:

I've only read one Malazon, but it seemed like old school D&D/Dragonlance fanfic to me. I've got to put it back on my to read list.


I was skeptical when I started Gardens of the Moon, I picked it up because SRD raved about it, actually.

By the time I got to Toll The Hounds I thought the series might be one of the best ever.

The last couple of books were sort of a let-down though, at least for me. Book 10 (The Crippled God) left me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

Still a great series though. The word "complex" doesn't do it justice.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you do the concurrent Esselmont books with it?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Did you do the concurrent Esselmont books with it?

--A



ewwww....Esselmont.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take that as a no. Very Happy

I like them. They're easier reads than Erikson, but the continuity is good enough that the world remains as believable, and they fill in a lot of the blanks before, between, and after, the main dekology.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
I'll take that as a no. Very Happy

I like them. They're easier reads than Erikson, but the continuity is good enough that the world remains as believable, and they fill in a lot of the blanks before, between, and after, the main dekology.

--A


I know what you're saying, but can you imagine if SRD had an acolyte or buddy or protege who "filled in the gaps" between Covenant books? It would be cool in a way, but an utter travesty in another.

Esselmont isn't even a writer. He's a glorified D&D DM who happens to be best buds with a writer.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he's an archaeologist, same as Erikson. Very Happy

Maybe if he had come along later, I'd feel more like you do, but since it appears to have been planned from the beginning, it still works for me mostly.

Agree that in some senses he's not as good a writer, but he has his strong points as well I think.

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