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Estie (Spoilers possible)

 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Estie (Spoilers possible) Reply with quote

I have drafted and abandoned this post for some days.

Having finished The War Within almost two weeks ago, I am itching to discuss. While many things have changed since the end of Seventh Decimate, Estie seems like an obvious topic to start discussion of this book.

Feel free to create more topics!

Mod note: Trying to strike a balance between discussion and circumspection, I encourage the former...but may "spoiler" some disclosures...although my experience of the dedicated SRD readers on the Watch is that y'all know where that line is...in fiction discussion, if not always in discussion of real-world events.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished the book last week and loved every minute of it. I also have no idea what is going to happen in the next book especially with Estie. She's come to be one of my favourite Donaldson characters for a long time.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the book really picked up when Donaldson focused on Estie. She could have so easily been a cliched character, but Donaldson gave her nuances and complexities that elevated her above the stereotype.

Obviously, there's a key matter that needs to be resolved with her in the third book. It will be interesting to see how Donaldson resolves it - along with everything else that needs to be done.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say Etsie is the center of TWW..the author fills out all the characters in the book but he really fills the Estie character out..perhaps into the 5 and 6th dimensions..He even kinda admits it the dialogue or two between her and Bifalt..you have changed ..and I have not...all bringing us to her choice at end...woowee..So the speculation is..
SPOILER ALERT
what is the nature of that she seeks to identify..??
Did the author give us clues thru-out this book? perhaps..One clue may be early on..the author tells us when she realizes her emotions for Bifallt are actually " desires",,,xxxx would come later...
I get the sense that in classic Donaldson style the climax of the next book and perhaps the whole tale, has a lot to do with Estie being who she is and Bifalt surpassing himself ..falling in love with the evolved Estie...??
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I fear about Estie is this: those who worship the god talked at length about how sorcerous power makes one arrogant and callous. And now Estie is going to acquire sorcerous power. I think this is a coincidence not. They all seemed to have dried up and left dodge at about exactly the same time Estie was given knowledge of her power, a bread crumb anyone could guess would be followed to the library. I don't know what this means, but it all seems interconnected.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
What I fear about Estie is this: those who worship the god talked at length about how sorcerous power makes one arrogant and callous. And now Estie is going to acquire sorcerous power. I think this is a coincidence not. They all seemed to have dried up and left dodge at about exactly the same time Estie was given knowledge of her power, a bread crumb anyone could guess would be followed to the library. I don't know what this means, but it all seems interconnected.


Estie's unrevealed 'gift' will be a key reveal in the 3rd book for sure.

Its a talent that could cut either way; nevermind what the Church said about those with sorcerous powers, look no further than the impact such a preoccupation with one's talent had on her own Father for signs and wonders.
As you say; for Estie, all roads lead to the Repository.
How long have they known of and planned to integrate the fact of her gift?

I think that Donaldson hints throughout the 2nd book that the Magisters - while a largely complacent and haughty lot - are nonetheless no better equipped to make sense of their world than anyone else - Bifalt's contention that they are to be deplored due to their capacity to inflict hurt while remaining at a safe distance contradicts his own easy sanctioning of rifles and cannons (sophistry, Covenant might say) - Estie reflects upon this early in the book, not seeing the other side of the coin in a very Bifalt-way..
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estie's gift remains a mystery. That even the Magisters of the Library hadn't mentioned her..mite be a clue. Mystery, maybe that is her gift,,mystify, send folks into an unknown..where their own fears or Love ruins them or saves them respectively.

I keep wanting to see her as a saving force against the Library's enemies. Perhaps that is a mistake. Maybe her talent is to get other folks to be all that they can be..plenty of clues pointing in that direction...and it may have a pay off in the sack with her husband..Did I say that?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the Magisters at the Library already know what Estie's power is. When the time was right, they sent someone tantalize her into coming to them.

The fact that they waited until the last minute means that they fear her power. They want to control her by circumstances so that she won't act independently.

They even may have arranged the whole Beleger/Amika alliance so as to keep her in check under Bifalt - a sorcery hater - until then.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats interesting Way..Her slumbering "gift" seems to be prejudicing a lot of folks,,most surprising the devotees. No matter, the implication is that her gift will be of major consequences or impact.
Yet , even if the Magisters didn't know her "condition" they know now, due to M Facile's communication abilities. Sure,the right thing to do for Estie is go to the Pros for identifying,guidance and nurturing her gift if thats what she chooses. What an internal contest she mite have ..if it was made plain her gift could save the Library and having to stave off the Arrogance of being the Heroine..Yes,Her independence mite be crucial to the whole deal.

OH! Maybe she has the gift of The Squirrel..of Brite Shiny Things..once mastered can distract a new at port sailor from a house of ill repute, a farmer from his soybeans, a soldier from his mission..Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds like a Most Holy Devotee of Flesh.

Estie will be so much more!
Still, I agree that SRD has set the expectation that ere the series is through, Estie and Bifalt will definitively consumate their marriage.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estie will be possessed of the gift of typesetting.

All those books in the Last Repository, hoarded away by the Magisters?

Estie will simply replicate them and let them out into the world to be read by any who wish.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats IT!....Estie is a Time Traveler!! She travels to now,,gets a scanner and a laptop..and goes back and scans all the stuff in the Library and puts it in a Flash Drive.! Then she introduces the enemies of Library to the Internet,,who drop everything and just troll everybody else all day...Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurch2 wrote:
Thats IT!....Estie is a Time Traveler!! She travels to now,,gets a scanner and a laptop..and goes back and scans all the stuff in the Library and puts it in a Flash Drive.! Then she introduces the enemies of Library to the Internet,,who drop everything and just troll everybody else all day...Smile


Well, that'd be a helluva swerve ...

But if her power were to encompass the ability to disseminate the library's information to those who sought it, then perhaps the need for warfare would be circumvented.

I think it was Magister Avail (was there also a Travail? sigh) who was able to broadcast his thoughts, and there was also talk of other Magisters who were able to focus in on the spoken words of individuals whom they had trained to 'listen' to - so there is that capacity for Magisters to communicate information across great distances and to whomever they like.

Anyway; I suppose my broader contention is that I reckon Donaldson will address the Last Repository's hoarding of wisdom and knowledge before the series is done, and I suspect it is Estie who will come up with a 'better answer' ..
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished TWW myself.

I was kind of ho hum with T7D, but TWW is much more engaging in my opinion. Not only does it flesh out exactly what the Magisters of the Last Repository (by the way, does anyone else helplessly think of The Last Suppository when they read that?) have done to Bifalt and how he has been painted into a corner...

...but it also gives us Estie (who's kind of an antimatter Linden Avery from the off - no endlessly agonizing navel-gazing from the former. She doesn't get paralysed by self-recrimination, but just takes it on the chin, steels herself and moves forward). Definitely a character whose story arc and ongoing development has piqued my interest.

My interest is also being held by the murky interplay between the various factions - what is the Magisters' primary objective? Survival of the Library and screw everyone else? What's the deal with the devotees - and why have they seemingly left Belleger and Amika in the lurch when they are needed most? Who are the faceless imminent invaders with a greater level of sorcery than any existing Magister? What's the goal of the priesthood of the great god Rile and where does their theurgy come from? Are the latter two one and the same? (I strongly suspect so).

I hope SRD doesn't do a rush job in an attempt to tie all loose ends together, come Book 3...

Regardless, I await it keenly.

OH PS there is a Travail as well... he's the acolyte (???) who'd been practising being able to hear *everybody* remotely - he's also reportedly near death at the great library, having seemingly been poisoned by a traitor within, plus he's Magister Facile's wrinkly love interest.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great summary. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

Yes, there is a lot to resolve, isn't there? I can't wait.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallen..Yes I can see the Preisthood and The Hater Invaders being intertwined..Perhaps the Priesthood Sorcerers actually control the Haters....kinda like the Flesh devotees but in a Spiritual/Faith way..The thing is that we haven't seen anything new from the Haters and Priests..just much more stronger manifestations...Still not sure why Facile ran from them. She could of put an end to their powers seems to me...yea, she didn't want to be discovered but still..another loose end along with the whole of the devotees skippin town. Perhaps it is a matter of Scale that is frightening everybody.

Yea , Donaldson developed the B plots well in TWW and how he brings all of levels of plot to a crescendo I await in wonder.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurch wrote:
Still not sure why Facile ran from them. She could of put an end to their powers seems to me...yea, she didn't want to be discovered but still...

Do not lose sight of the dilemma of Facile's decimate. Spoiler:
While she can utterly shut down the talents of other Magisters, she is completely vulnerable to non-magical attacks.
She has good reason to want to remain undetected!
Bringing this back to Estie (yes, Fallen, she is the un-Linden!), consider not only what her talent may be, but what concomitant vulnerabilities / dilemmas will accompany that Gift.

Poor sales notwithstanding, this series may turn out to be a new high point in SRD's storytelling artistry.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and further re Facile bailing out and heading for the hills, it's worth noting that Spoiler:
...the sorcery of the nameless invaders exceeds any known variant (e.g. sustained lightning, much more finely tuned earthquakes etc) as demonstrated by their breaking through the "impassable" reefs at the Bay of Lights.). So maybe her decimate isn't strong enough to nullify enhanced theurgy?

Mind you, King Smegin showed that Spoiler:
...he also had gained a previously unseen and unbelievably precise level of control over his own decimate of lightning, before he had his powers emasculated again by Facile's presence/decimate and then promptly topped himself. As we know, he could happily electrically barbecue someone without quite killing them, if he perversely so wished.

It's at the moment unclear whether Spoiler:
...Smegin achieved this single-handedly through obsessional practice zapping unfortunate Nuuri or whether he'd been secretly coached by agents of the more magically adept nameless invaders.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheFallen wrote:
It's at the moment unclear whether Spoiler:
...Smegin achieved this single-handedly through obsessional practice zapping unfortunate Nuuri or whether he'd been secretly coached by agents of the more magically adept nameless invaders.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see...


Are there not hints of the latter? Perhaps Spoiler:
through the Church of the Great God
?

HBJ
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