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Skyweir
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are Victorian values stiff upper lip values? Is that the crux of her meaning?

Its interesting as I have some sympathy with the notion ... today we in the West seem to have become less resilient and possibly more fragile.

When I was on the road ... we were at the coal face of social and human tragedies if you will. Some coped well, some did not. There was no mandatory debriefing in the 80s and you just got on with it.

I think its highly valuable to cater for the mental health and wellbeing of humans but wonder if we have not yet got the balance right 🤔
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed Av - you're right. The suffering of children wasn't given much thought right across the board in those days.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the argument for holding a second [confirmatory] referendum on leaving the EU.

When we voted first in 2016, we did not know that our decision would impact upon the fragile peace which pertained in Northern Ireland. We were not told that the likely sequel to our leaving would be the fracturing of the Union that we had all grown up within, had become used to as part of our extended 'British' family. Neither did we know how hard it would be to secure an agreement that would protect the interests of future generations, without pitching us 'new-born and unprepared' onto the not-so tender mercies of a cold and unforgiving WTO system. There was no talk of shortages of medicine, chaos at the boarders, civil unrest and long term economic readjustment - all aspects of leaving that are explicitly mentioned in the Governments own Yellowhammer Document, not simply the rumours of 'project fear' as some would have us believe.

In the face of this, Corbyn's plan of establishing the actual landing zone for Brexit and then putting it back to the people without attempting to influence their decision one way or the other, does not seem, well - quite so crazy after all.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the one hand, ignorance is no excuse. Very Happy On the other, I'm all for informed decisions. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Av; I've never really got that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' thing. Ok - if we assume some inherent degree of morality that we are born with - the tabula rasa not being so purely white after all - then maybe, just maybe, some things might qualify......but then you wouldn't be ignorent of them and would qualify as guilty. Most Laws however would be so far removed from this that the maxim simply wouldn't apply. If the Law actually applies this rigidly ...... then it truly is a ass! [sic].

In this particular case however, I agree that the motivation I believe was behind a large part of the leave vote (frankly, a mix between reasonable concern about the effect of untrammelled immigration on our society and good old fashioned racism, to be blunt about it) makes (that latter form) of 'ignorance' to be, yes, no excuse.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup ignorance of the law is an accepted and necessary legal fiction ... and it has to be so ... if not everyone would simply raise the excuse "I didn't know better" and they would have to be excused of all liability.

As this is ludicrous ... there is an expectation that most humans have a general understanding of right and wrong and moreso of each member of society's legal obligations.

As to the Brexit vote ... I'd think this could be challenged given the looseness of the language in the referendum, the lack of rigour presented by the governments presenting options to leave or stay ...

and clearly the government has demonstrated its own lack of understanding what leaving might mean ...

The government owe their citizens transparency of their actions ... AND their future planning ... and have a responsibility to INFORM its citizens of perceived consequences.

It was all soo poorly orchestrated paying no heed to public policy principles ... of well researched proposals, the employment of rigorous public consultative mechanisms, impact assessment processes etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this particular case though, it wasn't a law people were ignorant of. At least, not unless we consider the law of unintended consequences... Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, the way that the referendum was conducted was just wrong o so many levels. It came on the back of months and months of media focusing on immigrants flocking to our shores in bats, hiding in lorries, draining our NHS and snapping up our housing. It was conducted on both sides with only the barest responsibility for presentation of a truthful argument being adhered to - and little true thought as to the consequenses of what a leave vote would mean, such that when it happened even the Leave campaigners themselves were shocked.

And ignorance in this context an also mean something other than simply 'not knowing'. It can be the ignorance of the far right meeting, the racist chanting football terraces and the narrow blinkered thinking of intolerance and hatred.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the risk of relying on majority rule. Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tis a reflection more of a society that thinks right along the lines of the media campaign.

Anti immigration, pro self, pro nationalist and populist, sad to say.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that simple though.

Why do those types of campaigns exist? They're not aimed at people who are pro-immigration etc. The media sells what we want to buy. It has to, or nobody will buy anything.

Is it the fault of them for providing a commodity that is in demand? Or is the fault with the people who demand those things?

And it works equally for both sides of course.

(Haha, I thought I was in the 'Tank. Very Happy )

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh answered this non Tank post lol 😂

But it dematerialised in some server issue

This post might not even post 🤷‍♀️
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well fuck it posted lol 😂 🤦‍♀️😂

Lets see if I can do this again

In brief

Yes .. humans are the real issue .. people, society .. we are fed what we want to hear, read ... and cognitive dissonance filters out what we believe and ultimately think.

However, there are also agenda driven media sources whose objective it is to control and manipulate the narrative.

Think BreitBart... they have a specific political viewpoint and deliver and even manipulate news to fit their POV.

Think CNN often a delivery agent of liberal POV .. tho I find them reasonably objective.

Al Jazeera is a news source I enjoy reading.

FOX for example owned and driven by right wing conservatives interests. The examples of misreporting and straight up false reporting is pretty evident of its bias.

But yeah we ARE the market.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a reason that the world is the way that it is, and we're the reason. Very Happy That way is starting to slowly change, and we're the reason for that too.

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True that Big Grin
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