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Lets talk about Faith
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Iryssa
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've said before, Faith brings salvation, which brings works. No works, no matter how good, will save anyone. But if someone claims to be a Christian and has no works, their faith is dead, and there is no longer any sacrifice for sins.


Here's that verse:

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 1 Peter 3:9
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. So it's not that he wants everyone in heaven, but that he wants everyone to repent of their "sins".

Still a crucial difference I think.

And there you make my point. Regardless of the "good" you do, if it's not accompanied by faith, you might as well not bother. The result will be the same as if you had done nothing.

God cares only about peoples faith, and not what they do with their lives? Or is it that he cares only about the acts of people who also have faith? Good works without faith=nothing, and faith without good works=nothing?

The second option there I can accept, that if you profess faith, you must back it up by doing good.

But that it only counts if the two are combined, I can't accept.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get how God can't tolerate sin. An omnipotent being can do anything he chooses. And choosing to obliterate or torture a soul over something so trivial as a lack of faith seems down right capricious. If we are supposed to aspire to ideals of understanding, pity, and charity, how could a being with so much more to offer give any less?

And how could anything be "unfair" to a god, especially one who advocates turning the other cheek? Ok, Jesus had to die an agonizing death on the cross. What about the mother who had to watch her children be slaughtered and then is raped before being put to death herself. Just because she believed in, say Buddha, she has to go to hell? In the grand scale of human suffering, Jesus got off light, yet because He's the son of God, he gets to decide what's fair to Him? Talk about your priveleged ruling class.

And fair. What the heck is that? God didn't create a fair world. He created the game, stacked the deck, put a few card sharps at the table, yet you have to play and you have to play with everything you got. Call the wrong bluff and you're spending eternity being tortured by one of the high rollers playing at the other side of the table (not to mention the fact that your opponents know all the rules while you have to quickly thumb through the beginner's guide while you're playing). Face it, the house always wins, even if sometimes he comes down and whispers something in some other guy's ear or even occasionally gets in a game himself. Bah.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caer...You put that so well that I almost don't have anything to add Wink

I once read somewhere that life is like playing a game with blank cards, in a dark room, when you don't know the rules, and the dealer always smiles.

Awesome post Caer.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Av, but I worry it's a bit too inflamatory. I don't want anybody to think I don't respect them for what they believe.

It's just that sometimes it all seems so... limited. Like people are setting up God as some suped up version of themselves, and they're selling themselves short. If we can't understand something so simple as how God makes gravity work, how can we expect to understand his grand plan?

We don't trust doctors from 200 years ago (how many people still think they can cure a fever by balancing their humors - leeches, bloodletting, etc), yet so many of us put so much faith into the theological assertions of guys wandering the desert 2000 years ago.

If my best friend were an atheist and I a Christian, I wouldn't want him to go to Hell, no matter what he believed. He's a great guy. Compassionate, intelligent, fun to be around. Yet God, who knows us and loves us more than we possibly could eachother, will let him, nay, demand he go to Hell. It just doesn't make sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the way I feel about it, Sylmeister--just never been able to articulate it. You're my new hero, along with Ikkyu and Bootsy Collins.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caer Sylvanus wrote:
Thanks, Av, but I worry it's a bit too inflamatory. I don't want anybody to think I don't respect them for what they believe.


I didn't find it so, although I'm not the person to ask. It was perhaps impassioned, but not insulting. IMO anyway Smile

Caer Sylvanus wrote:
It's just that sometimes it all seems so... limited. Like people are setting up God as some suped up version of themselves, and they're selling themselves short.


That's what I think. It's as though man looked around, said "Wow, this is all so amazing, and complicated that we can't possibly have anything to do with it because we're just not that good. So it must be someone really big and powerful, who is good."

Somewhere else I mentioned that I thought that humanity have basically portrayed their gods as acting exactly as man would act, if he had the power. I can postulate a divine/higher being, but to assume that he requires our subservience so much that he will punish us if he doesn't get it strikes me as presumptuous at best, and arrogant at worst.

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