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Life begins at... ? (not a Roe v. Wade discussion)
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Cybrweez
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Av, II Kings 2:4? Elijah and Elisha talking about going to Jericho? What's that have to do w/sending babies to hell? Did you type wrong verse?

I too believe children reach accountability at a certain age, but that age is determined by God, as are all judgements. He knows better than we do.

Romans teaches that we are all accountable, b/c of nature, our conscience, as well as the Bible. How God works that all out, can't say for sure, suffice that He does. But the Bible does teach that to be "good enough" is not worth anything. Hebrews 11:6 says only through faith can we please God.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed Meant II Kings 2:24. Not sending children to hell, sending bears to maul 42 children to death for making fun of the prophets baldness. Pretty nasty if you ask me. Of course, OT god there. Wink

I see what you're saying dlb, and I understand that 10 is simply an arbitrary age that you chose for your example, but certainly one that is too young in terms of accepting heaven or hell. I think that at that age, children are not making such a choice for themselves, but because they have been raised in an environment where such choice is automatically a given.

I certainly agree that 10yr olds should be accountable for their actions, but not to the extent where they must accept "salvation" (from what?) in order to avoid hell.

And while I think that it's good that you were accountable for your actions at that age, I hope that you were not talking about having accepted "salvation" with hell as alternative.

Cybrweez mentions the other great problem I have. That, according to that interpretation, only "faith" is of any import to god. A good life is meaningless unless you are "saved" as well. And I can't accept that. I mean, take one of our favourite christians, Furls.

If that one part of her life were different, if she didn't believe in god (yes I know...but for the sake of argument Wink ) but if all others aspects of her life remained the same, if she acted the way she did out of pure moral conviction that had nothing to do with her faith, could that still be meaningless? Not in my book.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And while I think that it's good that you were accountable for your actions at that age, I hope that you were not talking about having accepted "salvation" with hell as alternative.


Ah, my friend - that is exactly what I'm saying.

As I said earlier, I was raised in a fundamentalist home. Therefore, placed throughout my memories of my childhood - at nearly regular intervals - are descriptions of Hell so graphic that they have haunted me to this day.

Christian fundamentalism is, in many ways, like Islamic fundamentalism - just without the car bombs. What the two have in common is the need for control, and that is achieved through fear. And along with control comes power.

So how do Islamic fundamentalists control their populations? Through fear - of gross punishment for crimes, by subjugating women, of a United States that wants to destroy muslims. And power results from the control over the people that results.

And how do Christian fundamentalists control their congregations? Much the same way - by subjugating women, of ultimate punishment for sin (Hell), of a Soviet Union determined to conquer the US.

So if I told you of the graphic sermons I heard as a child - sermons usually delivered by ignorant men who could barely read a newspaper, much less the Bible - is it any wonder that I was brought to a life-altering decision at an early age?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:


Ah, my friend - that is exactly what I'm saying.

As I said earlier, I was raised in a fundamentalist home. Therefore, placed throughout my memories of my childhood - at nearly regular intervals - are descriptions of Hell so graphic that they have haunted me to this day.

Christian fundamentalism is, in many ways, like Islamic fundamentalism - just without the car bombs. What the two have in common is the need for control, and that is achieved through fear. And along with control comes power.

So how do Islamic fundamentalists control their populations? Through fear - of gross punishment for crimes, by subjugating women, of a United States that wants to destroy muslims. And power results from the control over the people that results.

And how do Christian fundamentalists control their congregations? Much the same way - by subjugating women, of ultimate punishment for sin (Hell), of a Soviet Union determined to conquer the US.

So if I told you of the graphic sermons I heard as a child - sermons usually delivered by ignorant men who could barely read a newspaper, much less the Bible - is it any wonder that I was brought to a life-altering decision at an early age?


Ah, my friend. We will have to compare notes on this someday.

Don't forget that Christian fundamentalism also encourages parents to beat the hell out of their children via the old "spare the rod and spoil the child" philosophy.

*shudder*

And people wonder why I'm impatient with fanatics.

I had not thought of comparing Christian fundamentalists with Muslim radicals...but rest assured, I will be using your comparison--probably sooner than later.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Fist and Cho - you both have failed to understand the point of the example that I was giving.
Heh. Sorry, I hadn't really read the thread when I posted that. I skimmed some stuff, then saw Cho's post. I was just giving support to the statement that God doesn't send children to Hell, not debating your point, or the mindset that you were brought up in.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
And while I think that it's good that you were accountable for your actions at that age, I hope that you were not talking about having accepted "salvation" with hell as alternative.


Ah, my friend - that is exactly what I'm saying.


Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think that a child of ten is able to make their own decision on something like that. When I imagine telling a child that they will burn in hell if they don't behave/accept jesus/whatever, I can't see it as anything other than the most primitive form of blackmail.

A child accepting this is exactly what I was talking about when I said that it (acceptance) was a given. Children are, by their nature, and especially at a young age, under the erroneous impression that adults actually know what they're talking about. The possibility of questioning it probably doesn't even occur to them.

I wonder how many people have effectively been "manipulated" into their religion? (That's that "habitual" religion that I always talk about.)

dlbpharmd wrote:
Christian fundamentalism is, in many ways, like Islamic fundamentalism - just without the car bombs.


LOL Yet! Wink I once read an excellent quote by someone which said "A fanatic does as he believes god would do, if only god was in possession of all the facts."

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