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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I am SO loving watching this!)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just glad to see Luci in here.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I love it when she gets involved. (Now, if she'd just finish her schoolwork and come play some DII:LOD with me.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
Come on now......

Quote:
doc·u·men·ta·ry Audio pronunciation of "documentary" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dky-mnt-r)
adj.

1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.[/b


n. pl. doc·u·men·ta·ries

A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.

I know the history, which is why I mentioned other historical so-called documentaries.

If it's not telling the objective truth, it's not a documentary.

F9/11 is no more a documentary than Schindler's List. The difference is that SL never attempted to pass itself off as the truth (or The Truth).



WRONG DICTIONARY.COM !!! INC0RRECT.... DICTIONARY.COM ALSO DUPED BY A SILLY RUSE!!!

IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IT...GO AHEAD...BUT YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN AND WRONG WRONG WRONG.

i won't hold it against you though. i still like you.

Big Grin
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i've had this with actors before, on the set,
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I'm not. Sorry Luci, but a documentary (like the news) is by definition supposed to be objective.
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"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cail wrote:
No I'm not. Sorry Luci, but a documentary (like the news) is by definition supposed to be objective.


nope. i disagree
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do, then what differentiates an editorial (or op-ed piece) from a documentary (or the news)?
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a documentary is supposed to appear objective, but that doesn't make it so.

And lovely as it is to have LuciMay here in the 'Tank again, I must say I'm not seeing much justification. Wink

C'mon LuciMay, instead of just saying "wrong", think of a better way to explain it. Wink

A news report is (supposedly) objective. Even there, we're all smart enough to discern bias, (especially in your news). A documentary is supposed to inform. But why is it made, and who by?

It's made by people who feel strongly about what they want to inform you of. If two men made a documentary about Iraq seperately, don't you think each would reflect their personal opinions about the war?

And if one was in favour of it, and one was against it, don't you think each documentary would focus on different issues? Why? Wouldn't each man be trying to demonstrate that his point of view was right?

And if he's trying to demonstrate the validity of his view, then wouldn't he focus on the issues that supported it?

With documentaries, far more than with fiction, you can ask, "what's his motive?" Is he trying to convince you to preserve this beautiful wildlife? Does he want you to be opposed to Enron? Whatever.

Perhaps the term is being badly misused.

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Maybe a documentary is supposed to appear objective, but that doesn't make it so.

And lovely as it is to have LuciMay here in the 'Tank again, I must say I'm not seeing much justification. Wink

C'mon LuciMay, instead of just saying "wrong", think of a better way to explain it. Wink

A news report is (supposedly) objective. Even there, we're all smart enough to discern bias, (especially in your news). A documentary is supposed to inform. But why is it made, and who by?

It's made by people who feel strongly about what they want to inform you of. If two men made a documentary about Iraq seperately, don't you think each would reflect their personal opinions about the war?

And if one was in favour of it, and one was against it, don't you think each documentary would focus on different issues? Why? Wouldn't each man be trying to demonstrate that his point of view was right?

And if he's trying to demonstrate the validity of his view, then wouldn't he focus on the issues that supported it?

With documentaries, far more than with fiction, you can ask, "what's his motive?" Is he trying to convince you to preserve this beautiful wildlife? Does he want you to be opposed to Enron? Whatever.

Perhaps the term is being badly misused.

--A



well HELL AVATAR. don't tell me to explain and then exPLaIN FOR me!!!
Laughing
you've said it much more succinctly than my ownself so i feel stupid bothering now but i'll give it a shot...
at least i will try to explain what i'm thinking
(altho stomping my foot is so much more gratifying)

here is the list of films i watched this semester.
from watching these films, the conclusion that i came to is that, as Av says, no matter how objective a filmmaker is "supposed" to be, he is always present in the film thereby making it a subjective product.

i don't believe a filmmaker CAN be objective. because he's producing something in a way he wants to.

even reportage has editors. how many hands are on a film. depends on who funds it, right? film is money and somebody has to pay. chances are...a person who is making a "documentary" film are being funded in a variety of ways.

documentary film is costly. most styles require many many hours of footage. who edits a film?

these are all things i looked at while watching these films this semester to try and figure out the general "veracity" of documentary film.

trying to answer these questions for myself, i came to the conclusion that i don't believe film CAN be produced with pure and true objectivity.

so i stomp my feet in indignation to try and make you explain things to me that i don't understand...or to make you listen to me when i feel like writing. heh.

hell, all i'm saying is that one must always consider the source of anything purported to be T-R-U-E. that's really all.

anyways...here's the films

Quote:
First Contact (bob connolly and robin anderson, Aus, 1982)

Nanook of the North (robt flaherty, US, 1922)
Nanook Revisited (claude massot, CAN, 1992)

The Man with the Movie Camera (Dziga Vertov, USSR, 1929)
The Plow that Broke the Plains (Pare Lorentz, USA, 1936)
Nightmail (watt & wright, UK, 1936)

Triumph of the Will (Leni Riefenstahl, GER, 1934)

Why We Fight: Prelude to War (Frank Capra, USA, 1943)
The Life and Times of Rosie the Riviter (connie field, USA, 1980)

Harvest of Shame (Edward R Murrow & David Lowe, CBS, 1960)
Eyes on the Prize: Awakenings (hampton & vecchione, USA, 1980)

Lonely Boy (koenig and kroitor, CAN, 1962)

American Dream (barbara kopple, USA, 1991)

Law and Order (frederick wiseman, USA, 1969) this man is the real sh*t

Salesman (Albert & David Maysles, USA, 1969)

Roger & Me (you-know-who, USA, 1989)

and i must say...these last were my favorites...

Hearts and Minds (peter davis, USA, 1974)

Burden of Dreams (Les Blank, USA, 1982) a must see for any Herzog fans

The Fog of War (errol morris, USA, 2003)

Grizzly Man (werner herzog, USA, 2005) this being my favorite of the semester!!!



now...having typed all that cause i had nowhere to cut and paste it from, i hope this is helpful in attempting to justify the stamping of the foot. Big Grin

i highly recommend all of them...except for Triumph of the Will. no one should be made to sit through that. i felt like alex in a clockwork orange with my eyelids pulled back. arg. i think leni wanted to dink the fuhrer!! Rolling Eyes



and i've prattledon so much i'm too lazy to go back up and see if i make sense.
i'm sure i can count on you boys to let me know if i DON'T tho! Laughing
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, All I was trying to do was see if I understood your point of view, which I already said I agreed with. Laughing I haven't studied film or anything, you know. Wink

It's an interesting question you raise...is objectivity even possible?

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i'm just makin sure i've got enough crap in there for mr. film major! Laughing else i'm gonna have to conTINUE this conversation over booze. of course then i'm guaranteed toget him to AGREE with me. Twisted Evil
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Wish I could be joining you all. Very Happy

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar wrote:
Laughing Wish I could be joining you all. Very Happy

--A



man so do we Av...i shall take the laptop and attempt to INCLUDE you in the festivities!! Cheers
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL Thanks for the thought, but don't give up your time. It's not like I'll be online when it happens anyway. Do take your camera though.

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i shall. you can depend on me.
_________________
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies



i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio



a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will. Very Happy And look forward to the pics.

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if I'm getting this right, your argument is that because all the so-called documentaries you've seen have had a bias, that documentaries are supposed to be biased?

That, my dear, is really faulty logic.

Again, if we stick with your definition, what's the difference between documentary and editorial?

BTW, the vast majority of the films you saw were never meant to be documentaries....They were written from the get-go as propoganda films.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that documentaries are supposed to be biased. But that by practical definition, they are biased. Even if only slightly, even unconsciously, they're automatically biased by virtue of the fact that a human being with an opinion and a viewpoint, and maybe even an agenda, has made them in the first place.

And if I didn't say so before, I don't think that there is much, if any, practical difference.

--A
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are by your practical definition, then they're not documentaries. Look at a film like March of the Pengiuns. That's a documentary. There's no editorializing at all.

But to call a film like Rosie the Riveter or Triumph of the Will a documentary is just plain wrong.
_________________
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is why I'm saying that the term is being misused. Common usage applies it to productions that are clearly not unbiased.

--A
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