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Iraq
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As of 2/19/06, how would you rate the Iraq War and its aftermath?
Total failure in all respects
43%
 43%  [ 36 ]
Terrible in terms of lives lost and a set back for U.S.-Middle East relations
28%
 28%  [ 23 ]
A major setback on the WOT, but democracy in Iraq at least
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Difficulties were expected yet it probably had to happen
12%
 12%  [ 10 ]
Not too badly, although our intel networks must improve
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
Think it has gone relatively well
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
A complete success so far
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
I don't care as long as I'm safe
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I'm lost, where is the Mallory thread?
3%
 3%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 82

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not to mention it could have been Next Guy who set Zarqawi up! OR, Bin Laden himself may have ordered the "hit".... Surprised
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOOO, interesting thought, Esmer! Maybe Next Guy did set him up just to take his place.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we have to use TM from now on using Syl's new Urban Phrase....Next GuyTM.... Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik, it's not partisanship at all.

You still didn't answer the main question I wanted answered. How much celebrating do you think would be appropriate? A man was killed who deserved to die. Great. It's not a reason to celebrate, though.

None of us were happy with seeing OBL with his party watching the twin towers fall. But, I am not going to become that person and celebrate the death of an enemy. I acknowledged it's justice done, and hope it will be a possible springboard for the Iraqi Government to move forward making peace. Why is that partisan and not enough? It sounds far more partisan to be a cheerleader reveling in his death.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

caamora wrote:
Sin said:

Quote:
Malick, the problem lies in the fact, that we were attacked by Osama Bin Laden's direct henchmen on 9/11. We stopped chasing him, in order to invade another country and create another monster, which it took us 4 years to get and untold billions of dollars, and 1000s of US lives.


Wasn't Al Zarqawi OBL's direct henchmen? Invade another country? According to the New York Times, Zarqawi was in Iraq and had contacts in Bagdad in 2002 - one year before we went there. http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWE4YTUxNWRiYjBjOTM3MzNjYjFhZWJiOTQ2NWU3YTA=


I see no proof in that article of any attack Zarqawi made in Iraq, nor on any American interests, prior to him resisting our invasion. Yes, he did monstrous things, after we got there, and he has now paid for them with his life. However, nothing has shown me he did monstrous things before we got there. What is the difference between a Jordanian, or Egyptian, or whatever, joining the other side of the conflict to support his Muslim brothers in their fight against the infidels and the British joining the Americans? The Americans have hired Mercenaries to fight in Iraq.

Again, I am not excusing his crimes, he deserved to die, and he is dead, and there is someone already taking the reins. What more celebration will make you happy? And what has been accomplished other than justice for those Zarqawi killed, which I have already acknowledged?

Throwing a party to celebrate his death is not going to bring this thing to an end, understanding why they feel the way they feel, and responding within a framework that moves things forward to our aim is what will end it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sindatur wrote:

I see no proof in that article of any attack Zarqawi made in Iraq, nor on any American interests, prior to him resisting our invasion.


Well, then. Thank God Bush didn't read it!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What more celebration will make you happy?


I never called for a party. There is a large range of responses between saying, "His death is irrelevant," and throwing a party. I wasn't reacting to a lack of celebration, but to an active attempt to diminish a U.S. victory against a monster. All this celebration and party talk is a way to belittle an otherwise reasonable disappointment.

Quote:
So let me get this straight, intelligence leaks about domestic wiretapping, bad; intelligence leaks about a terrorist informant, good? WTH?


I don't understand your confusion. Though I've never given my opinions on domestic wiretapping, it is perfectly consistent to be upset about intel which hurts our effort against terrorism, while at the same time being happy about intel which helps our effort against terrorism.

Quote:
They're still going to kill people. F'n Zarqawi's a martyred saint to them now, and Next Guy will literally kill to get that kind of appreciation.


So what are you saying? We shouldn't kill any terrorist?

Quote:
ambushing us into defending ourselves instead of inviting us to discuss it has some undertones that will adversely affect the level and quality of the discussion, eh?


Ambush? Well, I did start out stating my surprise that there wasn't a thread created for the biggest news story at the time. (Yeah, I know, "big" is subjective here.) But I think "ambush" is a bit strong.

Quote:
you just have to acept the fact that some people just don't give a shit about it,


This is hard to accept. How can you be human and not care about such things? Anyway, I suspect the indifference is an active, intensional indifference. And I don't think it's coincidence that it falls along party lines.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How can you be human and not care about such things?


speaking for myself, the sheer volume of man's inhumanity to man in the past, now, and sure to come, has forced me to accept the fact that man wants it to be and accepts it that way. I do not, and therefore absolve myself of any responsibility for anything in the name of nothing at all.

It's like dinner theater. Wink And consider, if you will, that for one who believes there exists an infinite number of worlds upon worlds within worlds out there, and everywhere, exactly how many am I to become intimately involved in? Should I save them all, that need so? Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Can't you muster a little more excitement about the death of one of our most heinous enemies"

That suggests to me you want to see people shaking their fists in the air, toasting each other and partying and having a grand old celebration.

Again what is partisan about acknowledging he deserved to die and he is dead, and hoping it will help the Iraqi Government assert themselves? That's really all the celebration you're gonna get from me, even if it was someone I had respect for in the Whitehouse. I don't see it as a reason to celebrate. On the contrary, being upset about a lack of cheers and hoots and hollers is far more partisan, don't kid yourself.

Why is it you feel the need to see people excited about someone being killed, even if they are a monster. That's really rather perverted IMHO. it's done and that's good enough for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://onthescene.msnbc.com/baghdad/2006/06/uncontainable_e.html

It began like this: We got a phone call this morning that we had to come to an important press conference by the Iraqi prime minister here in the Green Zone. We were given no details, but we were told that it was important that we should come.

Once we got there, it was clear that something else was afoot.

They were setting up American flags and Iraqi flags at the podium and it was clear that if this was just an announcement by the prime minister, there would be no American flags in the building.

Quickly the prime minister arrived and he was flanked by General Casey and the U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad. At that stage we knew a big announcement was coming, to have all three of them together.

Maliki got up the podium and right away he said, "This is a message to all of the people who commit acts of terrorism; Zarqawi has been eliminated."

Then all of the Iraqi journalists who were in the room started to applaud. There were women in the back who started "ululating" – which is that traditional Arabic way of celebration when someone wags the tongue back and forth and makes sort of a wailing or shrieking noise.

People started applauding and cheering. I hadn’t seen that kind of reaction since Saddam Hussein was captured and there was a similar spontaneous outpouring of excitement from the Iraqi press corps that was gathered.

There were very few journalists in the room - there were probably only 20 of us there – because the press conference was organized on such short notice, but there was a great amount of excitement. People were throwing out questions to the prime minister and Casey to try to get details on what happened.

Then afterwards, I walked up to one of al-Malaki’s aides who I know and started giving him a hard time, saying "What are you doing to me? Why didn’t you tell me about this beforehand?"

He just smiled. He couldn’t contain his excitement. He gave me a hug. It was just an indication of how ecstatic they are that not only is Zarqawi dead, but that this can be a new start for the Iraqi government. He was literally hugging me because he couldn’t contain his excitement.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't understand your confusion. Though I've never given my opinions on domestic wiretapping, it is perfectly consistent to be upset about intel which hurts our effort against terrorism, while at the same time being happy about intel which helps our effort against terrorism.


First, it wasn't the intel that supposedly hurt our efforts (unless you consider the NYT intel), it was the disclosure of the assett.

Let me break it down for you. We learn the US is using unauthorized wiretaps domestically, and this is bad. We learn the US is using an informant, and this is good. The two do not... correlate. Both of these are disclosures. We shouldn't hold up one and say, "Look at what a great job we're doing" when you can't hold up another and say, "Look at what a bad thing the government is doing."

Quote:
So what are you saying? We shouldn't kill any terrorist?

You're almost begging the question and setting up a straw man, but fine. What's more important, a dead terrorist or a dead terrorist network? Why waste, or at least diminish, an intelligence asset for one terrorist when there are 50 more in line behind that one? Even if it's slower, it's better to follow that line back and cut off the whole chain. Or if you can't do that, at least use the intel to blunt the effectiveness of their attacks. Let me refer you to a quote by Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, a leader of Hamas.

"It's death whether by killing or by cancer; it's the same thing. Nothing will change if it's an Apache (helicopter) or cardiac arrest. But I prefer to be killed by Apache."

And he got his wish. That's my main beef with Israel's assassinations. The first assassination I remember hearing about was Yehia Ayyash, The Engineer (Mossad planted plastic explosives in his cell phone). Sure, it made a point, but how many leaders has Hamas had since then? How many terrorist attacks?

So no, I don't think we should put that much effort into killing a terrorist. If we gut a whole terrorist network, though, yeah, I might do a little dance.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We learn the US is using an informant, and this is good.


I wonder if there really was an informant, or if the US is just trying to sow discord among al-Qaeda.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarqawi's death is a total irrelevance as regards progress in the fight against terrorism because it's a fight the U.S has no idea how to win. The fact that this death is being hailed as a victory proves this. America's reason for being in the middle east is money. Pure and simple. If the insurgency make it costly rather than profitable, then the U.S withdraws. There is no real emotional tie to the region, and no political will. Hiliburton and Exxon shareholders may now love the middle east, but nobody else in the US gives a sh1t. As things stand somebody else will step into Zarqawi's shoes and nothing much will change.

What terrorists are trying to achieve by targeting the U.S is tied to your economy and not body counts. The US gets oil cheaper than anybody else, the price of it is very low. In fact it could be argued that America gets oil for free! Oil is traded in dollars, so if the U.S wants oil, it just prints more dollars... it's not quite as simple as that but the effect is the same.

This means two things. Firstly The US ecconomy is built around oil. Chemicals are about the biggest industry, so a large proportion of exports are dependant on oil because they are made of them.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, US transportation is cheap. America is a very big country, but nothing is thought of hauling freight all the way across the country. Even US ships use cheap oil to ship your exports all around the world.

AQ just needs to sit back and let you get further into the red as the price of oil continues to rise. Whatsmore, there is a very real possibility that oil could be traded in Euro's more and more over the next few decades which would be a major blow to the U.S economy. Iran have already hinted that they'll trade in Euro's and not dollars--it's one of the reasons the U.S is so pissed off at them.(BTW did you know that Iraq started trading in Euro's just 2 years prior to the invasion?)

The death of a single man, abhorrent as he was, pales in comparison to what AQ and other terrorist groups are trying to accomplish.

Additionaly, while claiming the relevance of Zarqawi's death comes in the subsequent morale boost carries some weight, it continues to be dwarfed by the dark shadow of Vietnam. Every time a body is found in Iraq the comparisons grow.
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Last edited by Marv on Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oil is traded in dollars, so if the U.S wants oil, it just prints more dollars


Now why didn't we think of that? Not only could we buy more oil, we could pay off the National Debt....why, that would solve everything! But, then there's that little problem of inflation and devalued currency...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Can't you muster a little more excitement about the death of one of our most heinous enemies"
That suggests to me you want to see people shaking their fists in the air, toasting each other and partying and having a grand old celebration.


Your mental image has nothing to do with my words. I was being sarcastic in response to a post about his death being irrelevant. A little more excitement than absolute indifference is still a far cry from "grand old celebration."

Quote:
Again what is partisan about acknowledging he deserved to die and he is dead, and hoping it will help the Iraqi Government assert themselves? That's really all the celebration you're gonna get from me,


Sindatur, I'm responding to half a dozen people here. Not every one of my comments applies to you. I have no problem with your position--except I see nothing wrong with getting excited about the death of a brutal enemy.

High Lord Tolkien, it seems from your linked article that at least some people get it. I suppose when everytime you step out of your home you have to worry about getting blown up by Zarqawi, it kind of puts things in perspective. But don't tell Sindatur, he'll say all those grateful people are perverts.
Smile

Quote:
What's more important, a dead terrorist or a dead terrorist network?


Well, the answer is obvious. But another thing that is being neglected in this discussion is all the intel we recovered after this strike. Hundreds of arrests were possible becuase of it. Also, many weapons caches were discovered. Granted, this intel might have still been available if we'd only captured him, but the point is that MUCH more was accomplished than the death of one man. And (back to the point that originally set me off) all the subsequent arrests are hardly irrelevant.

Quote:
America's reason for being in the middle east is money. Pure and simple. If the insurgency make it costly rather than profitable, then the U.S withdraws.


Conspiracy theorizing is fun, isn't it? Much more fun than making sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I just lost a long post here. I'm gonna have to summarise:

Think Malik has a point about the partisanship, but it wouldn't make the death anymore important if everybody was celebrating either.

Would like to see some support for the value of the intelligence gathered in the strike, and the arrests and discoveries made as a result. (Where did it come from, after they dropped 500Kgs of bombs on the hideout?)

Syl, don't expect consistency from any government on that issue. What helps us is good, what hinders us is bad. Even if they're the same thing.

Still, excellent point about the hydra, and the possible waste of an intel link good enough to get Zarqawi.

Easy to dismiss Tazz's comments Malik, but that last point may well be pretty accurate. And beyond government speeches, haven't seen anything that would prove intentions. Impossible to prove intentions in fact.

Oh...New Leader Vows Vengeance For Zarqawi

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, being so Fundamentalist and overly-patriotic, that you celebrate the death of enemies is precisely what we're fighting against. By doing so, you become what you're fighting against, so why bother fighting? The end of tyranny should be celebrated, not the end of a single tyrant.

One would imagine, if they were able to get Zarqawi, they should be able to get a whole lot of folks below him too. The real test of what was accomplished will be what they accomplish in the next few weeks.

Without Zarqawi, will they finally get electricity and water service above pre-invasion levels? Will they finally be able to count Iraqi Armed services beyond 1? Will they actually disrupt the insurgency's ability to make war? Or will everything be exactly the same aside from the name of the leader on the insurgency side?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dlbpharmd wrote:
Quote:
Oil is traded in dollars, so if the U.S wants oil, it just prints more dollars


Now why didn't we think of that? Not only could we buy more oil, we could pay off the National Debt....why, that would solve everything! But, then there's that little problem of inflation and devalued currency...


LOL. I know exactly how money is created!

Quote:
Much more fun than making sense


Stop watching Fox News, Malik.

Lets face facts, if America is going to lose... not just in Iraq, but in the war agaist terror overall, then it will be because the war has become too costly.

This isn't really a war of idiology at all. The US isn't fighting for freedom and democracy(what a joke that is), it's fighting to protect it's ecconomic interests. And AQ aren't fighting against the west to impose thier idiology on us, they are fighting us too drive us out of the east. If they make conflict so costly that our ecconomic interests over there are not worth fighting for, then the US, Britain and everybody else gives up and goes home -- its that simple.

Terrorists don't just go out and blow people up for the hell of it -- because it seemed like a good idea at the time!
There is a logic behind terrorism, there is strategy and tactics. Even if you can get past the bit about blowing up civilians without an emotional response, then the rest of it seems to be pretty hard for most people to get their heads around. The funny thing is that AQ have not made any great secret of their aims, or thier strategy. If you ignore the "they hate our freedoms" bull, and read some of Osama's speaches objectively, he makes it pretty clear what he is up to.

The U.S isn't even fighting a counter-insurgency war. It continues to use heavy munitions in built up areas and have a visible armed presence. How about addressing the aspirations of the people from whom the terrorists draw their support. It's a popularity contest that the U.S is losing badly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malik wrote:
But another thing that is being neglected in this discussion is all the intel we recovered after this strike. Hundreds of arrests were possible becuase of it. Also, many weapons caches were discovered. Granted, this intel might have still been available if we'd only captured him, but the point is that MUCH more was accomplished than the death of one man. And (back to the point that originally set me off) all the subsequent arrests are hardly irrelevant.

Ahh, but you didn't start this thread about that, did you?
Quote:
Does no one have an opinion on Zarqawi's death?

Quote:
...I'm glad he's dead.

Quote:
Can't you muster a little more excitement about the death of one of our most heinous enemies?

Quote:
A strategically important factor many of you are leaving out is the fact that our victory over Zarqawi involved precise, accurate intelligence.

So on and so on.

I believe the old acronym GIGO applies to the response you've received from this thread. Perhaps if you framed your points a little more subjectively and less critically, you'd find more people agreeing with you than you might've expected.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A question, if you will... does anyone posting here think that the death of Zarqawi will make a difference to the insurgency?

For my $0.02, sure - the guy was a murdering scumbag with blood on his hands who deserved death.

But there's blood on the coalition's hands too, and plenty of it. Without wishing to sound like an apologist for Zarqawi, it has to be said that if you steam into someone's country with nothing but a tissue of lies and half truths for justification then you've got to expect them to resist.

When you kill large numbers of civilians, imprison people without due process, torture and abuse your prisoners, set up puppet governments and all that jazz... well, they're likely to resist with everything they have.

Zarqawi's status as a martyr is now assured, and his death is far from the major blow to the insurgency that it's been portrayed as in the western media. Zarqawi's already been replaced by one Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, and the insurgents are still killing people with the same zeal they were a week ago.

Iraq's not really under anyone's control outside of the green zone, there's massive political and civil instability and the amount of people still being killed in Iraq every day means the situation out there is civil war in all but name.

So pardon me if I don't beat my chest in a patriotic fervour and sing the national anthem while posting about what a big deal it is that he got killed. He was just one small part of a really massive problem that would never have existed in the first place if our governments had possessed the good sense to stop at home and mind their own business.
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