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Begin: Dissecting Lord Foul's Bane, Chapters 1 & 2
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Lady Genni
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Everyone. Sorry to chime in so late but here are my thoughts.

The image of TC walking down the street was one of the most powerful images I have ever had. To this day I remember how vivid that was to me the first time I read it. I think the first chapter is introducing us to TC. I don't think we got a lot of history on him because if he had a lot of close relatives or friends then SRD would just have to spend more time explaining why they abandoned him. Also I think his past is sketchy because in essence it's dead to him. His bitterness and rage don't let you go to deeply into his past because he(TC) won't go to deeply into it.

The second chapter has always been difficult for me to read. I think the first time I read TCTC I just kind of skimmed through it, then spent the rest of the book pissed at TC because I couldn't understand his decisions. I think for my second reading I also just kind of skimmed the first couple of chapters because I knew what was coming and was anxious to get there. Smile By about my third reading, I decided to spend some time with the first two chapters to really understand TC and leprosy. It's the foundation of the rest of the story. With out really understanding what he's gone through and how leprosy affected his life you just don't "get" him the rest of the story. Now reading it again I am struck by how deeply Joan's abandonment must have felt. (probably because I'm older now Wink ) Marriage is a "covenant" (hee hee) before God. (or at least a contract - for our non religious friends) For Joan to have run out on him so quickly, is just harsh. I can understand her fear but she didn't try and deal with the situation at all. She just ran.

I think the whole begger and ethics thing is just giving us sort of a glimpse of what is to come. It also shows us a side of TC we haven't seen yet in the story. The human side. He was willing to give this begger his ring. He offered to feed/cloth/house him. All of this from a man that has been absorbed with rage from the moment we meet him. It's an oportunity to see that leprosy hasn't rotted his core humanity. He has kindness/compassion still. That shows a lot about him as a person.

Can't wait till we get to the next chapter!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a couple of questions that no one responded to from my last post. Maybe they were stupid questions Embarassed !

I wondered how it was that the Creator "chose" TC but it was Drool who summoned him. That kind of didn't click with me. As I said before, I think it was pretty well established in another thread that the Creator is not all-knowing, all-seeing. He is fallible. He doesn't know everything!

Couldn't the "Creator" in all actuality be Lord Foul? After all, the sign that said "Beware" turned into to red eyes filled with venom (obviously Lord Fouls eyes).

Thoughts anyone?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.. well maybe but for the fact that The Creator at the end of TPTP tells Covenant he chose him and the risk he took in his choosing him ..

.. and Foul is supposedly the Creator's brother .. and why would he summon TC to save the Land from himself?? .. and a number of other things which now as it is very late escape me Embarassed Wink

The question about the Creator allegedly choosing TC yet Drool summoning him ..is interesting. I dont know how that was co-ordinated ..

There is nothing to support the assertion that the Creator is not omniscient .. apart from the fact that he told TC himself at the end of TPTP that he didnt know which way it would work out .. but believed in TC because he was a man acquainted with despair .. because of his disease etc..

This would suggest that he might have a good idea how things will go .. but not a definitive knowledge .. maybe *shrug*

I dont know why TC describes the old beggars eyes like that .. maybe it was the mood he was in .. maybe it was true .. In TWL he appears to LA with foul stinking breath and decrepid .. so much so .. even as doctor she is reluctant to touch him .. but she does ..

I dont know why he would assume such disguises .. but I definitely believe he is the Creator and not Foul .. even though that description makes him sound an evil dude.

as an aside .. there's many a time I get a scratch and never use a bandaid .. never even occurs to me. If I had an open sore that was oozing some kind of gunk .. then admittedly I would go in search of a bandaid and some antiseptic .. but knocks and scratches happen all the time ..

just a flesh wound Wink

I dont think that is complacency .. LOL .. or maybe it is Rolling Eyes Wink Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the Creator IS all knowing all seeing. What he sees he cant act upon. He DID choose Covenant, and he obviously influenced Drools unconscious "decision".
LF and the Creator...the same? Wha? Am I just dumb...'cause I dont understand.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mad I'm a bit freaked out about something that Joan did when she ran. Why the heck would she eave all of her clothes and personal belongings and all of the baby's clothes and personal belongings and turn around and take the only vehicle???? In rural America without a vehicle you're totally and completely trapped! How the heck would TC even get food (if the townspeople didn't provide)?????????? THAT IS JUST SO COLD. It's like throwing him in jail and throwing away the key. Cussing
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:48 pm    Post subject: CREAOTR AN DROOL Reply with quote

I've always assumed that Drool sent out the summons, but that the Creator was free to pick the person who was sent. There were probably thousands of people who could meet Drool's criteria (white gold on person), and the Creator chose WHICH person went to the Land.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Sky for your input. The reason for LF wanting TC to come to the Land was to get his hands on the white gold and break the AoT to get out into the universe and wreak havoc. OK - I just answered my own question. It couldn't be LF because he is stuck in the Land because of the AoT. But, then again, he punches a hole into this world in TWL and a raver possesses Joan. Anyway, I could go on back and forth about that one! Rolling Eyes Also, then I must have misunderstood on the other thread what you had said re the Creator. I took it to show that he (the Creator) was fallible. Hey - there is no shame in it! Wink

Lord Mhorham - understand that this is a "dissection" of the Land. That means that the book is pulled apart and examined to the fullest that we can take it. This is a discussion and I would hope that everyone can feel free to throw out a possibility or explanation, no matter how far fetched, and hold it up for others to discuss. That is how we humans learn from each other! Wink And by the way, you stated that the Creator influenced Drool's decision. How so? I may have passed over that part and didn't catch it.

Guest - Joan does seem to a very cold and selfish person. From what I've read on this forum (and I may be wrong! Goodness knows I have been before) not many people like Joan. Probably for the reason you just mentioned.




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:51 pm    Post subject: Joan and the car Reply with quote

I had never thought about that, but most little country towns in the US don't have public transportation or even taxis. How did she expect him to get to town to get food? And wouldn't his perishables go bad by the time he walked home? Can't you imagine the ice cream or whatever in the summer heat? Maybe Joan was the person who set up the grocery delivery and bill payments?? And leaving her clothes -- if she's worried about germs that much, wouldn't it be easier to degerm clothing than a car?? How many women do you know who would leave their clothes?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There once was a guy names Tom
Who thought his wife Joan was da bomb!
Until he got really really sick
and she ran away really really quick,
And his heart was as if shredded by Nom
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Joan just threw Roger in the car and drove 2 her folks as fast as she could. Didn't want 2 be anywhere near 'leprosy"! Well we're going 2 get 2 this next week, but I've always had the impression that Foul was influencing Drool towards the white gold. Drool was just waving the Staff of Law around like a fool and hit a summoning, by what he thought was mistake. Some1 was going 2 be summoned, but the Creator chooses who that will be...

Gorgeous post LG! Quite eloquent-yes that's what it's all about--I've constantly had 2 go back 2 the beginning of Lord Foul's Bane, both times I read the Series. Very cool stuff there Sky, Pitch & Caammora. The bastard gets under my skin 2 much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never thought I would read the Chrons again..this is quite interesting... Very Happy


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many women would leave their clothes?!!! Not to mention their make-up, hair spray, the kitchen sink! Laughing

I agree with you about the germs thing. Joans inability to understand or even research leprosy just shows to me that she is an extremely selfish person. Someone mentioned before that she didn't appreciate TC's devotion and love of her. I agree. And when she later tries to call him in TIW (?) and says how hard it is for her to call - she is not even taking into consideration Covenant himself. He was the one who was dumped at the one time in his life when he needed her most! And he still would have taken her back! Not out of desperation or lonliness but because he loved her completely. TC certainly made a lot of mistakes in the Land but deep down he had a beautiful character.

By the way - great limerik (sp? er, poem)!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joan is pretty superficial 2 not even want 2 consider the human being she loved (?) in the leper's body, dont you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy, you guys are really being harsh towards Joan. Lets try to see it from her point of view, a mother's point of view. She is forced to make the hardest decision a person could ever make: decide which of your loved ones to sacrifice.
If she decides to stay she is risking that her son Roger might contract that awful terrible disease.
If she decides to go she is giving up her love and abandoning her husband.

What would you do in such a situation?

I think this was a big decision for her to make, maybe too big.. she was not capable of making a decision, so she just takes off and runs away to her folks. She is not thinking about anything at this point. Like you said danlo, she probably just throws a few clothes into a suitcase, drops that in the car baggage, and drives away. She keeps running away from that decision all the rest of her life.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:17 am    Post subject: MARRIAGE IN CRISIS Reply with quote

Doesn't how you react in a crisis in many ways show "the real you"? Joan sure didn't show herself to be a very considerate or compassionate person in the way she treated her husband. Couldn't she have at least kept in touch via phone? She can't get germs from the phone. Her child can't get germs from the phone. Couldn't she at least have told TC that she loved him when she dumped him a tthe hospital? I think people judge Joan, in part, with a lack of compassion because SHE doesn't show any compassion. Sad
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, I was on this forum a few hours ago, I come back after my post and there are already 6 replies.
A guest said- I always thought that Drool sent out the summons and the Creator just took his pick. Or something like that I didnt get the quote. Thats basically what I thought. OK, Caamora, since this is a dissection, Im going to give a very farfetch'd (sp?) theory. OK Drool has SoL. Drool sends Summons OUT of the AoT. Creator-out of AoT, directs command at a certain person. That person? Why, Thomas Covenant of course! Anyone want to help me out?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skyweir wrote:
..
as an aside .. there's many a time I get a scratch and never use a bandaid .. never even occurs to me. If I had an open sore that was oozing some kind of gunk .. then admittedly I would go in search of a bandaid and some antiseptic .. but knocks and scratches happen all the time ..

just a flesh wound Wink

I dont think that is complacency .. LOL .. or maybe it is Rolling Eyes Wink Razz


This comment reminds me of the disease, diabetes. I have a friend, diabetic, who allowed his feet to become chafed on a jobsite. He paid little attention to it, and a week later had an infection that had run rampant. He now goes to a hospital daily to have his feet debrided. He did the same thing that TC did, he ignored the signs, didn't perform the VSE that is required of lepers and diabetics. TC was aggressively complacent (if that isn't illustrative of the contradiction that is TC).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:58 am    Post subject: joan in the hospital Reply with quote

Evil or Very Mad How come she seems more concerned that her husband might become UGLY because of his disease than anything else? And that if their kid gets it he'll be UGLY. Like, what would she do if the leprosy never happened and at about the age 45 TC started getting a spare tire around his waist and a receding hairline. Would she book out on him then, too? Hello? Shallow bitch warning!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pitch - what would you do?

Joan was told that the risk of a child contracting leperosy is extremely low .. ok we will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she wasnt in a position to take any chances.

ok .. so she removes Roger from harms way .. but to leave all her clothes and personal belongings smacks of ingnorance. Now ignorance is not to poked fun of Wink .. look at the townsfolk .. they shared that ignorance .. leperosy engenders such ignorance .. 'leper!' outcast' 'unclean' .. the stigma which attaches itself to many diseases is through education overcome .. but in the case of leperosy .. it has stuck like mud ..
Quote:
People fear what they cannot understand
..

Joan not only feared this traditionally stigmatised disease .. she feared the myth that surrounds leperosy more. Even in the face of medical information she still retains her paranoia ..

She .. most unusual for a woman .. abandons all personal belongins .. for fear that she or Roger may catch leperosy!!!!

pitch - yes we can look at this from Joan's perspective .. of ignorance .. but even that indicts her .. I can apppreciate her wanting space between them .. but not to call???? .. not to care??? .. and then to lay the boot in with a marriage dissolution!!??

Why? So she can be with another?? So Roger can have another 'healthy' father??? So she can completely sever all ties with TC??

But why?? .. because he is sick with leperosy?? .. because he is impotent? because he can no longer provide her with the life she was accustomed to?

No fault divorce is a thing of the present .. but in the 70's in the US I am not so sure .. so what grounds did she cite for divorce?? Irretrievable breakdown in their relationship? The Court seemed sympathetic to Joan in her application and granted her the final seperation she craved.

A litte rough though isnt it?

Fred - yes you have a good point .. but you said he ignored the signs???

signs of what?? your friend had a known pre-existing condition - diabetes .. if you believe you are a healthy normal being .. what sign would a scratch give you??

Quote:
oh damn I have scratched myself!!


how often do we think ..

Quote:
oh damn I scratched myself .. I better take my superficial wound to a medical professional incase I have unwittingly at some point in my life contracted leperosy and it lays dormant in my body till now


I dont know about you? .. but when I get a scratch .. I tend to just think .. oh damn a scratch!! ..

If I was a diabetic I may be on guard for such things .. but I am not .. and TC was not aware of any pre-existing condition that would warrant such vigilent scrutiny and care.

By the way Caamora .. yes I did say the Creator was fallible and sadly there isnt much support for this thinking besides the Creators own words in which he describes his own fallibility to TC. Wink Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. Leprosy has a major stigma attached to it and it is probably natural to feel repulsed by it. AIDS still invokes fear in many people despite the assurances.

Those with nurturing abilities would probably stay but those without would flee. I cannot say I ever thought badly of Joan for doing what she did. My belief is that later on, she obviously regrets her actions but that's a totally different story Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Joan Reply with quote

My life experience has taught me not to judge people. instead I strive to try and understand the situations they had to deal with and learn from that. Labeling Joan as a "shallow bitch" is making a quick judgment and closing yourself from trying to understand and grow wiser.

Here's what SRD wrote about Joan:
Quote:
Ane when she arrived in his room the following morning, she was changed. Her skin was pale, as if her heart were hoarding blood, and the bones of her forehead seemed to press against the flesh. She had the look of a trapped animal.


The way I understand it Joan's initial reaction was purely emotional. She was scared, and she took off. At that point she didn't know all that much about leprosy, yes she was ignorant. Is that a crime?

What happened after that we can't be sure, maybe her parents advised her to leave him.. maybe she made that decision on her own. Once she has made that decision, lets try and understand why she doesn't call.

Sky, you wrote:
Quote:
but not to call???? .. not to care???

Maybe she didn't call because she cared so much? She had to amputate him out of her life, she had to shut away all of her feelings towards him, in order to keep her resolve - to execute her desicion. If She talked with him she would have broken into pieces. I'm guessing all this because we know the rest of the story, and we know how Joan ended up.

What would I have done? well twenty years ago, I might have done exactly the same... Today, I probably would try to learn as much as I could about the disease... I would talk about it with my partner, I wouldn't make any one sided hasty decisions.

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