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Lord Foul's Bane - Chapters 9 and 10
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 4:24 pm    Post subject: Lord Foul's Bane - Chapters 9 and 10 Reply with quote

Here we go....its my turn!

Chapter 9-Jehannum
Quote:
But his nerves were no less alive.
Does this mean hes not cured of his leprosy yet? If it doesnt, then what DID cure him??

Quote:
They[Waynhim] serve for their own reasons, not for love of us-performing simple tasks to redeem the evil of their might lore
Whats that supposed to mean? Are the Waynhim guilty about something? Have they been evil in the past??

Quote:
For uncounted moments he lay dazed, conscious only of the power of the detonation and the falming pain in his hand. His wedding ring seemed to be on fire.
This is from the scene w/the thunderstorm, the lightening bolt hit his ring, I think. Danlo said something about this is a result of a Raver, I think not; its from the storm, thats all.

When Atiaran and Covenant see the dead Waynhim, that says to me that the Raver is ahead of them, probably going somewhere away from them, probably scared from the fact that Covenant exploded w/power.

While at Soaring, the Raver was there, obviously he traveled at a very fast pace...

Now, why did the High Wood reject him? Is it because hes not a Lander? The WG has to hav something to do w/it...

Nothing really important after the rejection in Soaring...though I love it when Covenant goes "Hes safe" when the kid runs bye.
Laughing

Now to the Celebration(chapter 10 btw) the Wraiths are attracted to the WG, interesting.... When the ur-viles arrive, Covenant wont move to assist the Wraiths, do you think there was any way he could have helped?


Quote:
Take you staff and strike me, Unbeliever
; talk about taking responsibility...why does she feel its her fault? Spoiler:
And why does she blame Covenant the rest of their journey...together?


Well good Servants of the Land, I must be leaving. Hope this is an okay disucssion....
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now we'll probably get back 2 that huge debate in the TC threads about Loric rendering the Viles impotent and Foul's corruption of the ur-Viles. The Viles or the Demondim--not only at 1 time were a "high and lofty race"--but according 2 the glossary were: spawners of ur-viles and Waynhim. I figure Loric rendered them impotent while they were being corrupted 2 stop such corruption. Foul, historically, was already at work but Loric didn't recognize him--again we don't know that much about what really happened. And we don't kno that much about the Viles and their lore. Apparently their lore wasn't perfect and was easier 4 Foul 2 attack than b protected by whatever direct "Earthpower" Loric got from Berek.

The Waynhim and the ur-viles were definately damaged by Foul--stripped of any apparent lore--but the "good" in the Waynhim was stronger than in the more corruptable ur-viles. Foul may have been setting his sights 2 corrupt the Waynhim further but the Ritual of Desecration may have saved them. They remembered Loric w/gratitude--but mayb Kevin's run ins w/Foul diverted Foul's direct attention on the Waynhim away...

What I said about the ring in the previous discussion was this: If a Raver was involved at some point in the rape. And given that Foul just sent the Raver out 2 "feel" Covenant out--and never told the Raver about the ring. The Raver makes it's own stupid descision 2 attempt 2 master TC, the Wild Magic begins 2 awaken deep w/in TC, the Raver reaches it and is repelled. This is all internal--and I grant u that the 1st extrenal presence of the Wild Magic is not revealed until the thunderstorm...The Raver's presence may have caused the strike but TC is totally responsible 4 the rape.

The Raver then goes 2 Soaring Woodhelven 1st...kills the Waynhim on his way back 2 Mt. Thunder, he doubles back, in essence...and yes he may have been coming 4 TC, or Atiarin, again, but witnesses or feels the power of the Wild Magic during the storm...and scurries off...

The Woodhelvenen believe Jehannum escaped 2 Gravin Threndor..but I think he doubled back...


Last edited by danlo on Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:45 pm    Post subject: wild magic Reply with quote

In these two chapters we begin to see flashes of the wild magic at use! In the first case it's during Drool's "wrong" storm.
Quote:
Then a viscious skid sent him sledding down the hill with a face full of mud. When he looked up again throught the rain and dirt, Atiaran had vanished into the dark storm as if she were in terror of him, dreaded his touch. Fighting his way to his feet, Covenant roared at the rampant clouds,"Hellfire! You can't do this to me!"
It is then that the wild magic erupts from his hand and defeats the storm. In the second instance, he is at Soaring Woodhelvin and hasn't been treated very nicely so far by the residents (they are afraid because of the visit from the Raver). While enduring their tests, the magic springs to life again
Quote:
In one fluid motion, Baradakas drew a club from his cloak and raised it as he moved toward Covenant. Covenant reacted instinctively, defensively. Before the Hirebrand could reach him, he stooped and snatched up the lomillialor rod with his left hand. As Baradakas swung the club at his head, he slashed the Hirebrand's arm with the rod.
The wild magic then springs to life to protect TC. I find it very interesting that in these two first early uses of the power, they are both unconcious uses, and seem to be reactions to fear and/or rage. It's almost as though the magic has a mind of its own, here. I also like how TC sees the kids playing. Those same kids who instinctively feared the Raver have no problem with TC being around. It is also our first sight of an Unfettered One, and I've always thought that they are pretty cool. And I've always wondered exactly WHAT the Hirebrand saw in TC that both floored and saddened him. Did he see the Leprosy? the grief and rage? Was he something of a Seer and saw TC's future?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: LFB Chapters 9 and 10 Reply with quote

Quote:
The flames flowed continuously through their moving pattern, so that as the wheel turned, the individual Wraiths danced from place to place, now swinging along the outer rim, now circling the hub. Every Wraith moved and changed places constantly, but the pattern was never broken - no hiatus of misstep gapped the wheel, even for an instant - and every flame seemed both perfectly alone, wandering mysteriously after some personal destiny through the Dance, and perfectly a part of the whole.


--------------

Lord Mhoram wrote:


Now, why did the High Wood reject him? Is it because hes not a Lander? The WG has to hav something to do w/it...


I can't find the quote right now, but it says somewhere in TIW that the High Wood only works when the person being tested is not stronger than the tester. I think in this case Covenant was stronger than Baradakas, or at least more powerful (because of the white gold), and that's why the wood rejected him.

Edit: I found the quote.

Quote:
Lomillialor was said to be a sure test of fidelity - if the one tested did not far surpass the strength of the tester.


I was pretty close... Smile

~Foamy~


Last edited by Foamfollower1013 on Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always felt that the wood was like the Ranyhyn.
Spoiler:
The Ranyhyn reared to TC in the later chapters out of fear.

The high wood rejected TC at first because of fear of the White Gold. The 2nd time TC grips it, it holds - even though it tries to slip away.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still not positive the High Wood did reject him, I think Covenant was just a dork, and did not catch it.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't exactly call TC a dork..1st of all he didn't expect it, 2nd of all he only has 2 fingers on his right hand--and I have 2 assume he is right handed!!!!: 1.:
Quote:
...the Hirebrand's next move caught him by surprise.
2.:
Quote:
He jerked aside and clutched at the lomillialor with his right hand. But he did not have enough fingers to get a quick grip on it...
but I do agree...the High Wood did not reject him @ that point...he simply failed 2 catch it...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 5:01 pm    Post subject: bad dreams Reply with quote

I think I'd have to go with Danlo on this -- he's just not expecting it and drops it out of surprise as much as anything. But what I wanted to say, is that Donaldson goes to great length here to tell us about TC's bad dreams. He's not a writer to include things unless they're important, so what's up with all of the nightmares every night? Is it Covenant's way of unconciously punishing himself over what he did to Lena? Or is it more -- perhaps something Lord Foul or even the Raver (I think that the Raver is following him and Atiaran around, murdered the Waynhim, visited Soaring Woodhaven, etc.) is doing to him? And if it is an outside force, then why?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree that he never caught the high wood because he wasn't expecting it - although I'm tempted to believe that it would somehow attach itself to your hand even if you had no fingers. The shock at conviction when TC misses it suggests that they never saw anything unfair about the throw or anything preventing TC from catching it.

I enjoyed the sheer scale of Soaring Woohelven. That's a tree-house second to none Wink

The Wraith scene is another of those imagery scenes - one where I believe all that SRD is doing is enticing the reader further and further into the Land - and then shocking them back to reality with the violence.

I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't a recurring theme where SRD is attempting to place TC's predicament onto the reader - disbelief - wonder - anger - shock - if that makes sense Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That does make sense Vain! Isn't The Celebration of Spring 1 of the most beautiful and saddest chapts u've ever read? Getting close 2 the moon and the Soulease! I admit I read ahead! Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vain, it makes perfect sense! I think that you've hit the nail on the head. Few things I've read in books have the shock value of the rape of Lena or the attack on the wraiths. What a horrible way to go -- being eaten while still alive by an ur-vile (shudder). Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad I'm not the only person who is having trouble reading just the two assigned chapters! Very Happy And the attack on the Wraiths is almost too painful for me to read, not to mention talking about. Yeah, being eaten alive by an ur-vile is...gross, to say the least. If there were an emoticon throwing up, this would be a good place for it! Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several important events that happen in these two chapters:
Covenant is gifted with the health sense
Covenant and Atiaran discover the murdered Waynhim
Covenant is tested with the high wood truth test
The Celebration of Spring and it's tragic ending

I think I see some kind of thread that ties all these events. Remember that in the first two chapters we are introduced to the 'essence' of the story through the beggar's note, which brings up the question of moral behavior: right and wrong, ill and evil.

Now through Covenant's new sense SRD links health with good, and ill or disease with wrong and evil:
Quote:
He could tell that there was indeed something wrong in the air, something false. ... like somthing uneasy, out-of-place, unnatural in the distance. He understood intuitively that it was the odor of ill - the odor of premeditated disease.


The murder of the Waynhim is clearly an evil act, but it's manifestation in Covenant's senses is a poignant smell, an bad odor that intuitively smells wrong. It is as if the smell takes on a moral value. We categorize smells as sweet, pungent, etc., but it is only sensory input, it has no moral value.

The truth test is again a test of moral value. Is Covenant right or wrong? is he good or bad, true or false. But Covenant is closed to the people of the Land, they can not see him with thier health sense. And as Skyweir described it so beautifully in the thread about Covenant's failing the truth test:
Skyweir wrote:
Covenant was a wrong in the Land .. and .. interestingly he also would become a 'right' in the Land.. hence the paradox that Covenant was.


The Celebration of Spring comes to show us the good part of Covenant. The Wraiths are described as gold, light, and beautiful hence good, and they must see the good in Covenant since they pay tribute to him, each in turn dancing on his ring and being transformed. In contrast the ur-viles are a wedge of black darkness, hence evil. When the attack on the Wraiths begins Covenant is stricken motionless. Is it because he feels that he does not have the power to resist the evil, or because he hasn't yet bound his cause with the Land and it's right habitants? And why in the end does he dart after Atiaran? only for the sake of his loyality to her?

-pitch
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, with the wraiths Spoiler:
in TPTP they run from the Raver. Just like kids instinctively avoid the Raver in Soaring Woodhelvin, but don't mind TC.
I think this is at least a bit to reassure the reader that there's still some good in TC TC after what he did to Lena.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

we also get to see our first murder by a Raver. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I referred to Covenant being a dork, I merely meant he failed to catch the High Wood when Barakas tossed it at him.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate what happens to the wraiths. Worst thing I've read about other than the Red Wedding in Martin's book.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Covenant is gifted with the health sense


That's right pitch Smile Although it only happened AFTER his first use of wild magic - as if it unlocked the door to the Land just that little bit further.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have an alternative theory Wink

I don't know about you guys but many times when I am dreaming and the alarm clock goes off, phone rings, etc - I tend to integrate these external factors into my dream so that they make sense.

What say you that Covenant actually does have a serious collapse in the real world and all the shocks and horrors are attempts to revive him? These then are integrated into his dream and turn into shocks through his boots, wild magic, urviles eating wraiths, rape......
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vain, I think you may have just ruined the whole story for me! Laughing Crying or Very sad
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