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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the WHGB carefully, because it had been a year or two since reading the Second Chronicles and I needed the reminder. I thought it was very well done. The plot is somewhat byzantine, and to keep it all straight-- it's not like LOTR, which starts at point A (the Shire) proceeds to point B (Mount Doom) and returns to point A. (sort of.)
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit late to this I know, but I'm just rereading all the way through...

Another statement in the WHGB that I would quibble with is:

"Pretending to resist the Sunbane, the Clave extracts blood from the people of the Land to feed the Banefire, the true source of the Sunbane".

There is no support for this in the Second Chronicles (that I can recall) - and in any event, it cannot be correct.

The Banefire is conceived by the Clave as a way of limiting the effect of the Sunbane. Something that is conceived in that way cannot be the source of what it seeks to diminish/control. Logically, the Sunbane must have existed first - the Clave must then have explained the need for the Banefire as a way of combatting it.

Yes, the Banefire augments the Sunbane but cannot be the source of it. Although I don't think it is made completely explicit, my understanding was that Lord Foul managed to corrupt Earthpower in some unexplained way (allowed by the loss of the Staff of Law) and that is the source of the Sunbane.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Barnetto. The Banefire was created to feed the Sunbane; the Sunbane was already there.

However, in another sense, much of the power of the Sunbane does come from the Banefire. Without the Banefire, it would be much weaker. So the Banefire is the source of the Sunbane's power, at least.

I think, as a shortcut for the sake of making the WHGB briefer, it's tolerable. Not that I like it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks - it just stuck out like a sore thumb when I was reading the WHGB (just as much as some of the other things people have picked up on such as Covenant quenching the Banefire with wild magic).

I agree it's no a big thing when you take into account the purpose of the WHGB - to (re)inform readers of what they need to know as background to Runes (after all it lacks any mention of Bharathairealm) - but it's hard to restrain the urge to quibble in a somewhat geeky way when you are so immersed! Very Happy

Perhaps it should be seen as a compliment that we take even the WHGB so seriously!
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did I ever miss this thread?
It's a good one!

I support that TC ended the Banefire.
He destroyed the Master Ruhk (spelling?) and defeated the Clave. The Banefire was not self sustaining. It would have gone out eventually.
Linden and Nom just sped it up.
Also, my memory is hazy, didn't she initially come up with using the water from Glimmermere because TC was engulfed and screaming to the heavens inside the Banefire? She was trying to get him out of there! And then he just casually walked out while they were trying to put it out?
Not sure on the timing of all that.

And if you read what motivated Seadreamer, what the Earthsight was telling him. It fits quite nicely with TC's leprosy/venom corruption end of the world horrorfest.
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding was that blood sustained the Banefire - the master Rukh was a way to channel the energy of the Banefire/Sunbane in some way. It fed off (or channeled) the Banefire, not the other way round?

It's just a shortcut - but in this case I think less justified as (from memory?) I seem to remember some mention in Runes or FR of the waters of Glimmermere having coursed through Revelstone. So it would have been helpful to have had that referenced. IMHO

PS I think it the use of the word "quenched" that is misleading. I wouldn't have had an issue with "ended the Banefire".
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
My understanding was that blood sustained the Banefire - the master Rukh was a way to channel the energy of the Banefire/Sunbane in some way. It fed off (or channeled) the Banefire, not the other way round?


I always assumed that when the Rukh was destroyed the Banefire was no longer feeding the Sunbane.
Do we know what it's purpose was anyway?
The Riders connected to it and drew power from it rather than using blood.
Didn't someone actually see the Banefire's "energy" beaming towards the Sunbane at one point in the story? I would think that was the work of the Master Rukh too.
Just to be clear, I'm talking about that thing TC melted in the Banefire not what the Raver was wielding in the Hall of Gifts.



Barnetto wrote:
PS I think it the use of the word "quenched" that is misleading. I wouldn't have had an issue with "ended the Banefire".


Yes, if it says "quenched" then clearly Linden should be getting the credit.
Or rather Nom, he did all the work. Linden just cried and begged like usual. Big Grin
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I see it: Barnetto understands it the way I do.

The blood fed the Sunbane. The Banefire was the ritual that fed the blood to the Sunbane, as well as the manifestation of the power transference.

The Rukhs draw power off of this flow of power from blood to Sunbane. The Master Rukh takes the power from the Banefire and distributes it to the other Rukhs.

Destroying the Banefire destroyed the ritual that transferred the power. Without the flow of power, the Rukhs were rendered inert.

Destroying only the Rukh would not have stopped the Banefire. In fact, Covenant did slag the Master Rukh before he entered the Banefire.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
Pausing only to bring down the master-rukh in molten rain so that the surviving Riders would be cut off from their strength, he moved into the inferno.


If that had destroyed the Banefire, Covenant's apotheosis would not have been possible.

The Banefire was destroyed by the waters of Glimmermere. It disrupted the self-sustaining ritual that caused the power to flow.

Surely, had the Banefire merely been denied blood, it would have ended at some point. But it would have taken a while. And, from Linden's point of view, Covenant was in agony, a personal white-gold caamora, and he needed to be rescued. Hence, the water. It was the only thing anyone could think of that could meet and match the heat and power of the Banefire in the time that they had.

Still. even Nom would have required some time to divert the water. Covenant must have been in there a while.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
That might possibly be true -- I haven't thought of it that way.

But isn't it possible that Seadreamer has seen more than one thing?

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
"With the eyes of the gift, he beheld a wound upon the Earth, sore and terrible-a wound like a great nest of maggots, feeding upon the flesh of the world's heart. And he perceived that this wound, if left uncleansed, unhealed, would grow to consume all life and time, devouring the foundation and cornerstone of the Earth, unbinding Stone and Sea from themselves, birthing chaos."


I'm hard pressed to read such imagery and interpret it to mean 'This is Covenant at the One Tree'.



I believe that's close enough to be correct. This is Covenant at the One Tree, and Covenant in the Land, along with Linden or Hile Troy or anybody else from the "real" world.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
That might possibly be true -- I haven't thought of it that way.

But isn't it possible that Seadreamer has seen more than one thing?

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
"With the eyes of the gift, he beheld a wound upon the Earth, sore and terrible-a wound like a great nest of maggots, feeding upon the flesh of the world's heart. And he perceived that this wound, if left uncleansed, unhealed, would grow to consume all life and time, devouring the foundation and cornerstone of the Earth, unbinding Stone and Sea from themselves, birthing chaos."


I'm hard pressed to read such imagery and interpret it to mean 'This is Covenant at the One Tree'.



I believe that's close enough to be correct. This is Covenant at the One Tree, and Covenant in the Land, along with Linden or Hile Troy or anybody else from the "real" world.


Sounds more like the Sunbane to me. I can't point to anything textual at the moment, but having recently read through the Second Chronicles, it seems pretty clear that Seadreamer's original focus is the Sunbane - or at least the Banefire. The Giants, and indeed Seadreamer, need a lot of persuading to turn aside from that original purpose. It is not as if, upon finding Covenant, Seadreamer's vision is resolved or anything. It causes him great pain to set sail away from the Land at this point - it is, of course, only the momentous cleansing White Gold caamora for the dead of the Grieve that persuade the Giants to go with Covenant's plan.

And it also seemed clear to me that, at some point later, Seadreamer experiences a second vision (it may have been in Elesmendene?) A great sadness overcomes him that is palpably different to his original passionate pursuit of his vision. There is no passion in this second vision, only sadness and pain. The second vision is, of course, that Covenant may raise the Worm and that Seadreamer will need intervene to prevent it at the cost of his own life.

The idea that Covenant (and the rest of us) were mislead about Seadreamer's original vision is a nice theory, and would seem to fit in better with SRD's Runes/FR writing style wtih twists and misleading threads aplenty. But I just can't buy it in relation to The Second Chronicles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:


The Banefire was destroyed by the waters of Glimmermere. It disrupted the self-sustaining ritual that caused the power to flow.



Nope.
The Banefire was not self sustaining.
It needed blood.
It almost went out before the Haruchai showed up to "feed" it.

When TC destroyed the Clave (yes, he had help) he stopped the Banefire.
No Clave + no blood = no Banefire

I'd be willing to give credit to Nom because he "rent" the Raver (the only one who probably even knew fully how it worked).
But overall it was TC that did the job.

Linden only used her Health Sense to find a good path for the water to put it out quicker to save TC.
But he walked out of the Banefire on his own before she did anything.
Linden didn't do anything but wash the floors after TC left because she's so useless.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
wayfriend wrote:


The Banefire was destroyed by the waters of Glimmermere. It disrupted the self-sustaining ritual that caused the power to flow.



Nope.
The Banefire was not self sustaining.
It needed blood.
It almost went out before the Haruchai showed up to "feed" it.

When TC destroyed the Clave (yes, he had help) he stopped the Banefire.
No Clave + no blood = no Banefire

I'd be willing to give credit to Nom because he "rent" the Raver (the only one who probably even knew fully how it worked).
But overall it was TC that did the job.

Linden only used her Health Sense to find a good path for the water to put it out quicker to save TC.
But he walked out of the Banefire on his own before she did anything.
Linden didn't do anything but wash the floors after TC left because she's so useless.


To be fair, Wayfriend goes on in the next line to point out (quite rightly in my view):

Quote:
Surely, had the Banefire merely been denied blood, it would have ended at some point. But it would have taken a while


Ending the Banefire was a combination of things. I completely agree with you that the most important of those was the destruction of the Clave by TC (and the rending of the Raver by Nom) to prevent the Banefire having the sustenance it needed and Linden's contribution simply brought forward the "quenching" in time by a little.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
That might possibly be true -- I haven't thought of it that way.

But isn't it possible that Seadreamer has seen more than one thing?

In The Wounded Land was wrote:
"With the eyes of the gift, he beheld a wound upon the Earth, sore and terrible-a wound like a great nest of maggots, feeding upon the flesh of the world's heart. And he perceived that this wound, if left uncleansed, unhealed, would grow to consume all life and time, devouring the foundation and cornerstone of the Earth, unbinding Stone and Sea from themselves, birthing chaos."


I'm hard pressed to read such imagery and interpret it to mean 'This is Covenant at the One Tree'.



I believe that's close enough to be correct. This is Covenant at the One Tree, and Covenant in the Land, along with Linden or Hile Troy or anybody else from the "real" world.


Sounds more like the Sunbane to me. I can't point to anything textual at the moment, but having recently read through the Second Chronicles, it seems pretty clear that Seadreamer's original focus is the Sunbane - or at least the Banefire. The Giants, and indeed Seadreamer, need a lot of persuading to turn aside from that original purpose. It is not as if, upon finding Covenant, Seadreamer's vision is resolved or anything. It causes him great pain to set sail away from the Land at this point - it is, of course, only the momentous cleansing White Gold caamora for the dead of the Grieve that persuade the Giants to go with Covenant's plan.

And it also seemed clear to me that, at some point later, Seadreamer experiences a second vision (it may have been in Elesmendene?) A great sadness overcomes him that is palpably different to his original passionate pursuit of his vision. There is no passion in this second vision, only sadness and pain. The second vision is, of course, that Covenant may raise the Worm and that Seadreamer will need intervene to prevent it at the cost of his own life.

The idea that Covenant (and the rest of us) were mislead about Seadreamer's original vision is a nice theory, and would seem to fit in better with SRD's Runes/FR writing style wtih twists and misleading threads aplenty. But I just can't buy it in relation to The Second Chronicles.


There is a shadow upon the heart of the Earth, and upon the heart of the Elohim. I believe this is the same as the wound upon the Earth mentioned before. At the end of FR Infelice tells us what this is, but I have decided not to quote that book on this forum. And since nobody seems to know what the shadow upon the Elohim is, I have chosen to respond on a thread by that name on the FR forum.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
The Banefire was destroyed by the waters of Glimmermere. It disrupted the self-sustaining ritual that caused the power to flow.

Nope.
The Banefire was not self sustaining.
It needed blood.

I agreed to as much above. However, it was some-what self-sustaining, in that it didn't immediately go out when the blood stopped flowing. That's what I meant above.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Linden only used her Health Sense to find a good path for the water to put it out quicker to save TC.

The fact that TC needed saving was proof that stopping the blood alone was not enough to end the Banefire.

But using Glimmermere was Linden's plan from the beginning. And she did attempt it in order to save Covenant, although it did turn out that he didn't need saving.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
At the sight of what Covenant was doing, the First's visage had turned gray with defeat. But when Linden had explained how the Banefire could be extinguished, the First had come instantly back to herself. Sending Cail to rally their companions, she had sped away with Nom to find the upland plateau and Glimmermere.


She was well chosen, you must admit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

There is a shadow upon the heart of the Earth, and upon the heart of the Elohim. I believe this is the same as the wound upon the Earth mentioned before. At the end of FR Infelice tells us what this is, but I have decided not to quote that book on this forum. And since nobody seems to know what the shadow upon the Elohim is, I have chosen to respond on a thread by that name on the FR forum.


I can't find your response in the FR forum. Can you provide a link?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:

She was well chosen, you must admit.


She was trying to drown Covenant. Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barnetto wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:

There is a shadow upon the heart of the Earth, and upon the heart of the Elohim. I believe this is the same as the wound upon the Earth mentioned before. At the end of FR Infelice tells us what this is, but I have decided not to quote that book on this forum. And since nobody seems to know what the shadow upon the Elohim is, I have chosen to respond on a thread by that name on the FR forum.


I can't find your response in the FR forum. Can you provide a link?


Not easily. But I can give you the name of the FR thread: The Shadow (moved from Runes forum)

:0)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayfriend wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:
wayfriend wrote:
The Banefire was destroyed by the waters of Glimmermere. It disrupted the self-sustaining ritual that caused the power to flow.

Nope.
The Banefire was not self sustaining.
It needed blood.

I agreed to as much above. However, it was some-what self-sustaining, in that it didn't immediately go out when the blood stopped flowing. That's what I meant above.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:
Linden only used her Health Sense to find a good path for the water to put it out quicker to save TC.

The fact that TC needed saving was proof that stopping the blood alone was not enough to end the Banefire.

But using Glimmermere was Linden's plan from the beginning. And she did attempt it in order to save Covenant, although it did turn out that he didn't need saving.

In White Gold Weilder was wrote:
At the sight of what Covenant was doing, the First's visage had turned gray with defeat. But when Linden had explained how the Banefire could be extinguished, the First had come instantly back to herself. Sending Cail to rally their companions, she had sped away with Nom to find the upland plateau and Glimmermere.


She was well chosen, you must admit.


Cable Seadreamer "saw" the wound upon the Earth, correct? But we didn't know what it was and so we all assumed it was the Sunbane. In the present Chrons,

(wrong forum again) Spoiler:

another Giant has had a similar vision, but this time it seems to be more clear what the "wound" is because of his relentless attempts to kill Linden.

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