I really miss the Creator

[SkurjMaster]

Another post here with a similar title laments the absence of Lord Mhoram. I second that. However, the Creator/Ochre robe dude was always a favorite of mine. In the First Chrons he set the tone and then finished off the series. He loomed behind the entire story. In the Second Chrons he set the tone again. His absence at the end of that series marks a transition which, until writing this post, never really occurred to me. What implications does that in itself have? Thomas Covenant interposed his own being between Foul and the Arch. Does this act itself negate the need for a Creator? When Thomas Covenant stepped into the Arch, did the Creator have to step back further in order to remain in a 'non-interference' mode? Whatever the case may be, if this series is about endings, then the end of the Creator's involvement may have been the first ending to be suffered by the readers of the Last Chrons, and it may have happened in the Second Chrons. What would the meaning be if he is just another character among many at the end of the series. I miss the Creator.

[SkurjMaster]

I buggered the poll setup. The thing that looks like a title was supposed to be one of the options. Can that be reset?

[wayfriend]

You should be able to click "edit" on the base post and fix all that up.

Of course the Creator's absense is significant. And, you know, I miss him, too. With the Creator not appearing, it feels like something is very wrong, like there's no one looking over Coventant and Linden's shoulder whose on their side. I get that it moves the story into another level, and part of that new level is the increase in uncertainty. So it's working, okay?
_________________

[Ananda]

If I remember correctly, aren't they speculating that it came to Jeremiah maybe? The characters discussed its absence, too, didn't they?
_________________
Monsters, they eat
Your kind of meat
And they're moving as far as they can
And as fast as they can

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Creator turned out to be either Covenant himself or Jeremiah, making the Land one huge time loop designed to keep Foul imprisoned without the possibility of escape.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

[Zarathustra]

I don't see how the Creator could be Covenant, or anyone else in the "real world." The identity between Covenant and Foul, for instance, is only conceivable because of the relationship between the Land and Covenant's world: metaphor, personification. When Covenant is in the Land, he can confront parts of his inner self in an externalized form. But this narrative logic breaks down if he can also confront parts of himself in external form in his own world. That would make the real world like the Land world, magical, transcendent. But if that's the case, then we would naturally begin to wonder if the Creator made that world, too, since both worlds share this "magical" nature. But the Creator can't enter his own creations, so the real world can't be his own creation, if the ochre-robe beggar is the Creator (which is an established fact, right?).

I don't know. I have trouble keeping the levels straight. Donaldson has said (in his essay on epic fantasy) that Foul is a part of TC externalized, but maybe he only meant that from a writer's perspective, and not as a literal part of the story. In that case, it's "pure" metaphor. Not supposed to be taken literally. But the Land is itself a place where the line between literal and symbolic is blurred, as we saw in the 2nd Chrons where the question of its reality drops below the surface of what's relevant. The characters themselves actually discuss it, so it's part of the story. So this invites us to put the line-blurring back on the table, as literal parts of the story.

What gets me about the Creator is that if TC is confronting parts of himself in external form in the Land, and the Creator is forbidden from entering the Land, then there's no way the Creator can be part of Covenant. Does that mean there is no inner Creator to balance out TC's inner Despiser? I find that impossible to believe. TC was a writer. Of course he has an inner Creator. Maybe there's simply no way Covenant can confront that part of himself in the Land, because it's not a part one needs to confront, but rather a part one needs to bring out.

We all have an inner Despiser that we need to keep from affecting the world. Our burden in this life is the need to "imprison" our own inner Despiser, so that this part of ourselves doesn't corrupt our lives and our world, so that we don't end up hurting each other. Simultaneously, we need to nurture and express our own inner Creator, to bring love and beauty out into the world. To dramatize this dual task, you'd need a narrative world where the inner Despiser is already externalized, while the inner Creator was not. Which is exactly what we have with The Chronicles--a mythical world where the greatest danger to its universe is the Despiser breaking out of his prison. He's already "external" in the sense that he is out and about in the Land, and characters have to confront him, and he messes shit up. But his externalization can become even greater. Universal.

Maybe we'll finally see the Creator in the Land, something the characters themselves will achieve (by bringing him "out" of themselves, into this world). I mean, if the whole Land-world is going to end, why not a final appearance by the Creator? It couldn't hurt at this point.

We all expect Jeremiah to build some kind of prison for Foul, but since it's a task we all need to complete, I'd expect other characters to be involved, and Jeremiah leading the way or showing them how.
_________________
Meaning is created internally by each individual in each specific life: any attempt at *meaning* which relies on some kind of external superstructure (God, Satan, the Creator, the Worm, whatever) for its substance misses the point (I mean the point of my story). -SRD

Remain faithful to the earth, my brothers, with the power of your virtue. Let your gift-giving love and your knowledge serve the meaning of the earth ... Do not let them fly away from earthly things and beat with their wings against eternal walls. Alas, there has always been so much virtue that has flown away. Lead back to the earth the virtue that flew away, as I do–back to the body, back to life, that it may give the earth a meaning, a human meaning. -Nietzsche

[Hashi Lebwohl]

hrm...you raise some serious points here. The Creator himself told us that he couldn't touch the Land without breaking the Arch, so he can't be either Covenant or Jeremiah, as they are both in the Land.

We also haven't seen Lord Foul, at least he hasn't made any personal appearances (not that I recall). Could his lack of presence be related to the Creator's lack of presence? They are both still there, just absolutely behind the scenes?

I am still juggling the main plotlines: Kastenessen and the skurj (but they seem to be merely a feint), Roger (ostensibly a real problem but, again, mostly a feint), Joan (no longer a problem but all those caesures weakened the Arch), She (a threat but she hasn't crawled up to the surface just yet), and the Worm (definitely a real threat). *sigh* I need to reread through the series before The Last Dark comes out next year.

What is frustrating me is that I keep thinking that I should be able to glimpse the overall picture but it's like I am trying to decipher a painting from only an inch away--I can see parts of it but not enough of it all at once to figure out what it is.
_________________
No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.

What is the secret of Zen? Burn all your Zen books.

If you can't handle losing then you don't deserve to win.

[Vraith]

I'm still juggling around various ideas/speculations on this, and what they might imply.
The two I return to the most are that
1...[I think I said this one elsewhere] the Creator has picked his team, and turned them loose to play. It would be anti-choice, anti-creative, anti-trust, to reach out to/warn them.
2...[the stronger one, I think, given the nature of the world]. Appearing to Linden would turn her into his tool. The Creator needs her to doubt he cares, and/or believe he's given up in order to act as other than his hand in the world. Even if in itself this didn't make her his tool, given the extremity of her actions in her doubt, how much more would she do if she knew/believed the Creator had her back? [or that any salvation for the Land was up to him, not her]. Appearing to TC is obviously impossible. Appearing to Jerry? Maybe he did, but we wouldn't know, and I doubt it...I suspect his touch on Jerry might make Jerry's hiding of his true self not possible. LF certainly would know, probably the croyel it seems to me [purely speculation].

A third one that might best fit my grand interpretation/might be fruitful is that the Creator must stay away for there to be any hope for a future...if there is to be a mortal world, it must be made by mortals [I consider even the Elohim as mortal, compared to beings like LF/SHE/Creator] or suffer again the fate of the current world eventually.
_________________
The ONLY value of universal characters is that they help us, by reasoning, to know new truths about individual things.

I always had a repulsive need to be something more than human.

I just want something I can never have.

As was his language so was his life.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

[SkurjMaster]

I am not sure that the following speculation is crazy or not, and it may certainly not be productive, so please pardon it as you read this. However, as some have pointed out, the Creator here is not the kind that we may have all been exposed to conceptually or religiously (all powerful, omniscient, etc). So, is it possible that he is just another 'hero' from another cosmos elevated to 'immortal' status by some conflict which he ultimately won? Or, what if the cosmos in which Linden, TC, and crew find themselves is as much an external expression of internal conflict for our immortals (Creator, Foul, She) as it is for our heroes. Then the story is one of 'crossing/similar conflicts.' Just a crazy thought or two. Given the expansiveness of the Watch, likely not even unique.

[deer of the dawn]

Among other thoughts I've speculated that perhaps he was mortal, and he has actually died in our world. He made sure Covenant and Linden were there to take over for him?

But then, he has to remain outside, doesn't he? If he dies, the only way he has to assure the continuance of opposition for A-Jeroth is by sending someone else in-- someone who can be immortal within the Arch of Time, for whatever reason by influence of white gold (and if SRD never really explains the white gold, I am fine with that). Remember, Mhoram told TC, You are the white gold.

I also thought maybe the Creator was Covenant as a very old man, looping back to send himself, but have kind of discarded that one...

In any case, I don't think we've heard the last about him. Some kind of resolve has to be in the works.
_________________
Grand Reread Progress: Runes Of The Earth
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria



Ardinéa, my free e-book
My songs